Are BUIS necessary on a defensive pistol

[SoCalDep]

Regarding the KR training study, I’ve been in contact with him and he’s been very helpful in providing information regarding the results of his study, as well as what he feels the limitations were, and what he would have done differently were he to do it now.

Having conducted somewhat similar attempts at quantifying performance skills, motor learning, and other aspects of firearms proficiency, particularly as it relates to pistol optics, I totally understand the idea that you start with a goal, and at the end realize how many things that could have, or should have been done.

I still think the results of his study have merit, not only to show the fact that pistol optics need training, especially for those who are used to iron sights. I also think that his study dovetails with the Norwich study, the Sage Dynamics study, and I’m finding that what I am working on right now doesn’t conflict with any of those, and just adds another piece to the puzzle, which we will hopefully end up solving soon.

[SoCalDep]

Yay... my first double-tap.

That’s what I get for posting in a forum while trying to teach my kid math I don’t understand.

[1Rangemaster]

Another fun fact -- Jim Wall won single stack at the Idaho state championship USPSA match some years back shooting a 1911 with no sights, just a bare slide.

I remember Jim Walls of Milt Sparks Leather doing well at the American Handgunner Shootoff Championships doing very well with that 1911; he told me it had survived a fire. Something to be said for indexing, and as mentioned earlier, training and practice.
To the OP: I would not say backup sights are necessary-they are mandatory. It’s like having a reserve fuel tank, parachute or weapon; you could go your whole life without needing-until you do. It also becomes a matter of liability for issued weapons perhaps.
Caveat would be training, practice and testing same. The best setup I’ve seen is a plain black Ameriglo rear with a subdued Tritium vial front(no outline). I don’t have a great deal of experience with rear sight forward. I can see the argument for it, but seem to be doing acceptable with what I have.

[GJM]

I remember Jim Walls of Milt Sparks Leather doing well at the American Handgunner Shootoff Championships doing very well with that 1911; he told me it had survived a fire. Something to be said for indexing, and as mentioned earlier, training and practice.
To the OP: I would not say backup sights are necessary-they are mandatory. It’s like having a reserve fuel tank, parachute or weapon; you could go your whole life without needing-until you do. It also becomes a matter of liability for issued weapons perhaps.
Caveat would be training, practice and testing same. The best setup I’ve seen is a plain black Ameriglo rear with a subdued Tritium vial front(no outline). I don’t have a great deal of experience with rear sight forward. I can see the argument for it, but seem to be doing acceptable with what I have.

Has anyone here ever transitioned to pistol BUIS during a string of fire during a match, at a class, or during training.

[1Rangemaster]

We have a block of instruction where sights are turned off, we tape the forward lens, etc. But the students know that is coming, so it’s not a “failure” drill.
I have done some limited training individually with the irons-mostly to check their zero. Also have a laser/light(TLR8A) mounted on duty gun and run that with the laser. I’m a bit embarrassed to say on a couple of occasions when I’ve drawn the gun on the range it seems I’d forgotten to turn the sight on. I stopped, but I should have used that as a training moment, and will fix that in the near future.
It seems if we are going to mandate the back up sights, we need some instruction and evaluation, much like we do with back up weapons.
This could be another evolution in dry fire also.

[Ben34]

That's actually not neccessary !

[Mark D]

Has anyone here ever transitioned to pistol BUIS during a string of fire during a match, at a class, or during training.

I transitioned to BUIS during a Steel Challenge match when my Type 1 RMR intermittently failed. If memory serves, I had to switch to irons on several strings of fire. It wasn't my best match, but I was pleasantly surprised at my hits with the irons.

For those interested in the RMR failure - I had the Battlewerx antiflicker plate installed, and was using an Energizer battery. After the match I installed a new Duracell and that seemed to resolve the issue. Although that sight has had very little usage since then.

[JCN]

To the OP: I would not say backup sights are necessary-they are mandatory. It’s like having a reserve fuel tank, parachute or weapon; you could go your whole life without needing-until you do. It also becomes a matter of liability for issued weapons perhaps.

Hear me out.

Where are the backup sights on an irons only gun?

I have had iron guns that have gotten either their rear dovetail bumped or front sight turned or broken and there was no backup.

That's why I think having irons PLUS red dot is an advantage over irons alone from a redundancy / reserve fuel tank analogy.

My current setup has accurate BUIS (low profile) with a dot.

@GJM I wonder if the transition to BUIS mid-string could be accomplished in one of the following manners:
1. Set dot brightness to low and transition from low light to bright shooting environment to wash out the dot and force BUIS use.
2. Have a top mounted battery dot and have the cover loose... but then you're hunting for the missing cap later.
3. This is the approach I might try: Have two identical dot guns, one with the dot on and one with it off. Put them in a bag or box and pick one at random. You don't know if you have a functioning dot or not when the buzzer goes off.

Could get more gamey with it and have three identical dot guns placed on barrels in a COF. Have a friend decide whether each one has a dot on or off and run through the COF swapping guns (only put 4 rounds per gun so you can drop empty guns).

I might go to the range and goof off with my BUIS for a little today.

[psalms144.1]

Define necessary? I think this is a VERY personal decision. What is your perception of acceptable accuracy, and "typical defensive use" range? For me, acceptable accuracy is being able to on demand consistently place rounds into the CNS or high chest "golden triangle," and defensive range is contact to 25 yards.

My buddy's 2-3 week old SRO died this weekend - nothing would make it come on. He's got BUIS, so he could still shoot. He's also got one of the best trained indexes I've ever seen - really exceptional. I'm sure he could hit a silhouette out to 15 yards with a bare slide without issue. But, applying what is acceptable to ME, how many of us can pull off a CNS hit or a high center chest hit at 10-15 yards with no sights? I can tell you that I cannot, and I consider myself a fairly proficient shooter with a lot of ammo downrange in training.

I've told this tale before - when I was assigned at USSOCOM I had effectively unlimited training ammunition. We went to a course that focused on unsighted "instinctive" shooting, and, after burning 3K rounds in three days, we could all consistently hit discrete targets (3-5" circles) at reasonable ranges (3-7 yards, with some longer shots and some movers) shooting on pure index. As long as we got to the range and shot a couple hundred rounds every week, we could maintain the "index only" technique. Once we missed a couple of weeks training, that skill went away.

So, again, realistically, how many shooters have the resources and desire to train hard enough to be able to make sightless hits on demand?

And, as has been pointed out over and over and over and over again in this thread - what does it cost, in terms of weight and "convenience" to have BUIS on your pistol?

[1Rangemaster]

@JCN: from your posts, you are a dedicated and very involved shooter. Some folks/organizations will not have the resources you do, and have multiple identical setups. I think, and will work on this over the next few weeks, that one procedure would be to have a practice partner set up a “failure”-just turn sight off for example, and run an evaluation.
Something like a short Givens test would be informative.
As @TCinVA has pointed out, some sort of visual index is necessary. Train and practice, folks...