Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Re comment from the Aimpoint Rep:
Question: are you saying this is not a legitimate way to check the alignment of the dot and irons? This thread is "Can it be done?", not "Should it be done?
This not a purely recreational 22LR plinker. It also serves as an inexpensive trainer to supplant 9mm training for red dot equipped duty guns. I'll go to the thread on the optics forum you referenced. Good stuff and opportunity for me to learn more on the topic.
Last edited by Bruce in WV; 01-14-2022 at 01:36 PM.
Yankee refugee living in the free state of West Virginia
Reminds me that I need to put my Mk.III 22/45 back together. I stripped it after a range session in 3/20 (trigger was malfing) for a deep cleaning. I got called away, so I put it into a bag. Then the pandemic hit and I just put it away.
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
Looking through the sights:
Yankee refugee living in the free state of West Virginia
I would say should not be done.
Wayne can speak for himself but as someone With 20 years on red dot carbines in about five years on red dot pistols, including caring both on duty and training others to carry them on duty s little background is in order.
Wayne was 100% right that the irons and the red dot are independent sighting systems which should be used independently. This is true of both pistols and Carbines.
By way of background, early in the GWOT, When conventional forces begin getting red dot optics on Carbines someone figured out that you could speed up zero process for the optic if you put the red dot on the front sight of your already zeroed iron sights. This was intended solely as an administrative / range procedure, IF you are using true co-witness BUIS.
However, we all are aware of how information becomes twisted integrated via the “telephone game.” So a process designed to aid in getting large numbers of weapons zeroed quickly morphed into soldiers and airman being taught garbage like red dot sights are used by putting the red dot on the tip of the front sight.
Similarly, People with red dot sights on Carbines and true co-witness BUIS were taught to check that the dot was on the tip of the front sight to “check zero” as a pre-mission check. Again an administrative procedure, and one that only applies if you are using true co-witness BUIS.
Just like with flashlight techniques, mission and equipment drive techniques. If one is using an optic on a carbine at lower 1/3 to witness height or with the higher mounts now used to allow passive aiming with night vision goggles neither of the administrative procedures involving the dot on the front sight have any application. It’s a parlor trick whose time has passed.
Here’s the issue, whether on a carbine or a pistol the optic is your primary sighting system and the back up iron sights are just that back ups only for use if the primary sighting system fails.
Shooting is a visual activity. With iron sites your eye is accommodating or shifting focus between two or three different siding plains depending on how you’re using the iron sights. An optic is a single focal plane siding system, you look at the target and superimpose the red dot. Doing one thing is always going to be faster and more efficient than doing two or three things.
People who advocate using co-witness irons as training wheels to find the dot do not understand how optics are supposed to be used. I shot iron sights on handguns for nearly 30 years before getting serious about red dots. While I believe back up irons (or some form of secondary sighting system) are a necessity on a duty gun, I found the best tool for learning to use red dots on a pistol was shooting a pistol with no back up irons or at least no irons visible through the optic.
True co-witness irons unnecessarily clutter the optic window and can make use of the optic less efficient. This is why we saw a move to lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS on carbines And why I personally prefer a lower 1/3 to lower 1/4 co-witness on pistol optics, Particularly those with smaller windows like the RMR.
I have a a Ruger mkIII with a Holosun on a mad Mac mount and I’m fine with the irons not being visible. In fact I prefer it.
Regarding secondary sighting systems, irons are still the most practical choice on pistols but on many serious use carbines a laser or a second mini red dot optic have supplanted irons.
Could not agree more. I just started working hard on PMO pistols. Age is a bitch, sights are for the young. I have a MKIV with a 5 MOA SRO. I don’t want to see the sights. It means I’m not using the dot properly. I use MKIV range time to train on focusing on the dot. Indexing sights and focusing on dot before taking the shot takes away the advantage of the dot.