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Thread: Elmer Keith, the .44 Magnum, and the .357

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    But, did he really shot a mule deer from 600 yards away?
    When I got into handguns back in the mid eighties, my mentor was a retired gentleman who had been a long time bullseye competitor. In the Fifties and Sixties he shot in several bullseye leagues that were active here in Vermont at the time. He said that in one of the leagues, the Border Patrol agents from the station on the Canadian border would come and compete. At one point, Harlon Carter was stationed there for a while. My friend said that one time they asked Carter whether Elmer Keith really made the shots he wrote about. Carter's reply- "When you go through life shooting at everything in sight, you're bound to hit something now and then."

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by vtfarmer View Post
    When I got into handguns back in the mid eighties, my mentor was a retired gentleman who had been a long time bullseye competitor. In the Fifties and Sixties he shot in several bullseye leagues that were active here in Vermont at the time. He said that in one of the leagues, the Border Patrol agents from the station on the Canadian border would come and compete. At one point, Harlon Carter was stationed there for a while. My friend said that one time they asked Carter whether Elmer Keith really made the shots he wrote about. Carter's reply- "When you go through life shooting at everything in sight, you're bound to hit something now and then."
    I was at a National Guard bullseye match at Camp Robinson, AR in 1980 or 1981. I talked with some of the guys from Idaho, some of whom had known Elmer Keith.

    They said that he would shoot anything that moved.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I was at a National Guard bullseye match at Camp Robinson, AR in 1980 or 1981. I talked with some of the guys from Idaho, some of whom had known Elmer Keith.

    They said that he would shoot anything that moved.


    Okie John
    If you make it a practice to shoot anything that moves, it would infer that maybe you might get good at shooting moving things.

    Also the law of averages would be on your side that you might occasionally hit things that by all rights shouldn't have been hit.

    Someone has killed a polar bear with a .22 short, and people have killed deer with all manner of underpowered rounds, so it is not outside the realm of possibility.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Oldherkpilot's Avatar
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    I absolutely believe that Elmer made that shot. If he hadn't, i suppose we might never have heard of the attempt. I know there are plenty of folks who think 25 yards is a long poke with a handgun.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldherkpilot View Post
    I absolutely believe that Elmer made that shot. If he hadn't, i suppose we might never have heard of the attempt. I know there are plenty of folks who think 25 yards is a long poke with a handgun.
    I'm one of those folks. I blame being severely nearsighted, and I cannot comprehend even seeing a deer sized target at 600 yds , so perhaps I am just too credulous.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldherkpilot View Post
    I absolutely believe that Elmer made that shot. If he hadn't, i suppose we might never have heard of the attempt. I know there are plenty of folks who think 25 yards is a long poke with a handgun.
    I used to shoot up to 250+ m with all kind of handguns... not "hand rifles"

    I'm highly doubtful, to say the least

  7. #17
    Member Zeke38's Avatar
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    I met and knew Elmer Keith. He shot that deer because the dufus he was guiding had gutshot the deer and Keith didn't have a rifle with him. He shot a lot of rocks and boulders at extended ranges. He knew the area he was hunting and only shot the animal because he wanted to put it out of it's misery. He walked the rounds in and luckily took the deer with the 5th or 6th round. He just stated fact, he didn't brag about shooting at an animal at that range. He was a humane hunter and a great shot, He shot a 55 gallon drum for the Army with a 45 govt model with gi sights at 300yds, repeatedly upon demand. He was a great shot, look at all the contributions he has made to the shooting world, bullets, 44 Magnum, revolvers, 338 Win Mag, leather gear.

    He was old Idaho, he was good to his word!

  8. #18
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    Here is the story as told by Elmer Keith:

    Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.” Paul said, “You take the rifle.”
    “I said, how is it sighted?”
    He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.” I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.
    I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.” Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.

    When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?” He said, “No, go ahead.”

    I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.” There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.” Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.”

    “Well,” I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.” He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.” I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.

    Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?” He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.” Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.” There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.

    I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.” After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.” Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.

    Elmer Keith

    Three shots, hits the second and third

    You guys are true believers

  9. #19
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    I shot a pistol at 600 yards (laser ranged) exactly once, 10 rounds, in an early G-19 with WWB ammo from walmart. I had a spotter with binoculars telling me where I was hitting so I could walk them in, the small caliber RN bullet hits are hard to see at that range even on dry ground. I hit the 24" plate once in 10 rds.

    The background to that:

    I read many of the popular gun magazines as a kid in the 70s then found a copy of Keiths book and studied the description of how to hold the sights, which makes a big difference in repeatable results on varuious locations. I dont recall which writer mentioned it, but words to the effect of "its luck to hit things at longer distance with a pistol, but the more you do it the luckier you get" certainly apply.

    As a kid I had about 100 yards to shoot max. I shot my first Super Blackhawk there with fair results, then when I moved to Az, I was able to indulge in longer range shooting. I did it a fair amount, out to around 300 yards, using the method of keeping the front sight and target relationship the same, and lowering the rear sight in relation to the front. It gives a better, easier to repeat sight picture than picking some imaginary point above the target to hold on with a tops even sight picture. That may work if you always shoot at the same location, but go forth into the world and every place has different background to use as reference points. Because of the sight picture method, the trajectory/drop figures mean little or nothing. Experience gives a workable starting point, as as our luck predictor suggests, the more you do it the luckier you seem to get. Similar velocity and bullet shape play into it, but with some experience, you can get a close and workable estimate of hold to work with.

    When I moved to the northern rockies, I ran into quite a few guys that shot longer distance regularly with pistols. First time I shot one of Mr Linebaughs 500 cal guns, his target was a 15" truck rim on a hillside at 300 yards. i didnt hit it, but I think i startled it with several hits. I think Mr Linebaugh commented something to the order of "youve done this before". Others I met had also been shooting one handed a lot. My experience with that previously had been "I may some day have to shoot one handed, i should practice it some now and then". I met Bob Edgar, he shot one handed on everything that I knew of, and did some exhibition style shooting in public, like cards etc held in peoples hands, he used to shoot cigarettes out of his wifes mouth, etc. He also hunted with his Colt SAA 45 quite a bit and I believe shot one handed for that, though I never hunted with him. The first time I shot with him, I was shooting my 4" 29 two handed at rocks @ 300 yards, Bob was shooting his 45 one handed and making better hits first shot and afterwards than i was two handed. Last thing I recall Bob mentioning hunting was an antelope he shot at 265 yards I believe, one handed, first round hit, 45 Colt with heavy loads. I believe he liked the 225 gr Speer JHP bullets for hunting. His hunting loads were quite impressive, Ill not mention the charge.

    OK, one handed shooting is not the "modern way", and not as effective, but it had a certain intrigue. I started shooting more one handed, then started shooting almost all my pistol practice one handed. Oh, and where I shot much of the time, the best targets were the 18" plate @ 300 yards and rocks and clumps of sage near it, so yes, I was shooting almost entirely one handed @ 300 yards. Along comes the g-19, the ex didnt like it when i got it for her as a car gun for going to town, so i started shooting it, ammo was $11.88/100 of the WWB loads. I was startled that i was able to hit the 300 yard plate with it, even with the crappy spongy trigger release. Shooting it more over the next few years, it became common to make around 3-4/10 on the 300 yard plate one handed, and 6-7/10 two handed. First round hits became relatively common once o figured out the sight picture t use. in the case of my gun, it hit just above the top of the front sight @ 25 yards, which i prefer, and at 300, with the target plate split by the front sight, the top edge of the rear was about 2/3 down the dot of the front sight. When a friend get a g-20, she asked where I held on the 300 yard plate and she used the same hold, she hit it in the first magazine.

    So, shooting s&w revolvers at distance is MUCH easier to do consistently than the g-19, and Id shot the smiths and Ruger SAs far more than the G. The G was what I had that day I decided to try the 600 yard plate, and I had someone to spot, so tried it. I have no doubts that if I shot that distance regularly with Smiths or the Rugers that it could be done with reasonable consistency.

    Eyesight plays a huge part of being able to shoot distance well. Many mention they can barely see a 25 yard target well. OK, Im sorry thats how it is for them, but I also see many comments on the subject mentioning that someone tried shooting longer distances once or twice, couldnt do it, so anyone that claims to must be lying or making up stories etc. They may be able to breeze through a tax return or other paperwork, and I agonize through it for hours. My experience in that regard is hardly a usable metric for whether anyone else can do it better than I can. At our old spot in Az we had an 18w x 36H plate, I could usually get a mediocre to fair pistol shot to bang it at least once with a 22 pistol within 10 minutes or so, even if they couldnt believe it was possible before trying it.


    Shooting spot with 300 and 600 yard plates indicated

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    Looking back from the 600 yard plate

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    The old 300 yard plate

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    Last edited by Malamute; 05-28-2021 at 11:19 AM.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  10. #20
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Posting glitch/double tap.....
    Last edited by Malamute; 05-28-2021 at 10:49 AM.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

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