Elmer Keith, the .44 Magnum, and the .357

[Trooper224]

Back in the day, there were custom sights offered with horizontal gold lines set into the front sight blade, used for holding the front sight high in the rear notch. This were made for long range shooting just as Elmer described.

[Borderland]

I have to ask this technical question here because I truly don't know the answer.

When shooting a revolver at a great distance, say 600 yds, how does one see the target? I'm familiar with ladder rear sights that might be found on a 1903 Springfield rifle, but I've never seen anything like that on a revolver. When elevated enough to compensate for elevation at 600 yds, doesn't the muzzle obstruct the target?

I suppose if one were to use a RD it might be adjustable for elevation but I wouldn't know because I've never tried to adjust one that much. I know that a model 29 has adjustment for elevation but the rear sight needs to be raised way past any adjustment that I've seen on an N frame.

As an aside, I read an account of US troops killing Poncho Villas men at a range of 700 yds using 1903 Springfield rifles during the siege at Columbus NM. Probably were trained to use those ladder sights effectively. Dial up 700 yds and have a go at it.

[Lester Polfus]

I have to ask this technical question here because I truly don't know the answer.

When shooting a revolver at a great distance, say 600 yds, how does one see the target? I'm familiar with ladder rear sights that might be found on a 1903 Springfield rifle, but I've never seen anything like that on a revolver. When elevated enough to compensate for elevation at 600 yds, doesn't the muzzle obstruct the target?

I suppose if one were to use a RD it might be adjustable for elevation but I wouldn't know because I've never tried to adjust one that much. I know that a model 29 has adjustment for elevation but the rear sight needs to be raised way past any adjustment that I've seen on an N frame.

As an aside, I read an account of US troops killing Poncho Villas men at a range of 700 yds using 1903 Springfield rifles during the siege at Columbus NM. Probably were trained to use those ladder sights effectively. Dial up 700 yds and have a go at it.

Keith talks about this at length in his book Sixguns.

There are two ways to do it:

1) Is to estimate your hold over, pick a spot above the target, use a normal sight picture, and squeeze 'er off real careful.

2) What Keith advocated, and I'm practicing is to hold the tip of the front sight on the target, but let the front sight come up and out of the rear sight notch. So with practice you know that if half the front sight is out of the rear sight notch, with X load you will be on at Y distance.

As was alluded up-thread, there are front sights with graduated lines on them.

[Borderland]

Keith talks about this at length in his book Sixguns.

There are two ways to do it:

1) Is to estimate your hold over, pick a spot above the target, use a normal sight picture, and squeeze 'er off real careful.

2) What Keith advocated, and I'm practicing is to hold the tip of the front sight on the target, but let the front sight come up and out of the rear sight notch. So with practice you know that if half the front sight is out of the rear sight notch, with X load you will be on at Y distance.

As was alluded up-thread, there are front sights with graduated lines on them.

Makes sense. Elevating the front sight to a known accomplishes the same thing as lowering the rear sight.

[Outpost75]

I have to ask this technical question here because I truly don't know the answer.

When shooting a revolver at a great distance, say 600 yds, how does one see the target? I'm familiar with ladder rear sights that might be found on a 1903 Springfield rifle, but I've never seen anything like that on a revolver. When elevated enough to compensate for elevation at 600 yds, doesn't the muzzle obstruct the target?

I suppose if one were to use a RD it might be adjustable for elevation but I wouldn't know because I've never tried to adjust one that much. I know that a model 29 has adjustment for elevation but the rear sight needs to be raised way past any adjustment that I've seen on an N frame.

As an aside, I read an account of US troops killing Poncho Villas men at a range of 700 yds using 1903 Springfield rifles during the siege at Columbus NM. Probably were trained to use those ladder sights effectively. Dial up 700 yds and have a go at it.

The method Keith used, and what I was taught was to raise the front sight above the horizontal, such that with the modified sight picture you could clearly see the target and observe the bullet strikes and to adjust fire. The attachments refer to the Webley MKVI in .455 shooting service ammunition:

[Caballoflaco]

Yup, elevating and lowering the post in a notch sight to adjust for elevation goes wayyy back. I’ve seen British Musketry manuals from the mid 1800’s with illustrations that are basically the same as what Outpost 75 just posted even though their rifles had quality adjustable sights.

Iirc in McGiverns fast and fancy revolver shooting he has a photo of a front sight that was lined for elevation just like Trooper224 described and at least a few paragraphs talking about shooting .357’s out to 4-500 yards.

[oregon45]

Back in the day, there were custom sights offered with horizontal gold lines set into the front sight blade, used for holding the front sight high in the rear notch. This were made for long range shooting just as Elmer described.

I had Hamilton Bowen install such a sight on the Bisley .45 Colt he built for me:

[Caballoflaco]

I had Hamilton Bowen install such a sight on the Bisley .45 Colt he built for me:

What are the approximate ranges for those lines?

[oregon45]

What are the approximate ranges for those lines?

They don't correspond to any particular range, and aren't intended to. They're designed only to give hold-over markings when elevating the front sight in the rear sight notch.

[Borderland]

I look at all of this with regards to the odds of hitting anything at 600 yards with a revolver even thought the shooter might be well practiced at shooting > 300 yds.

Most will probably disagree with this analogy but I think it is similar. Kicking field goals has some of the same challenges, namely windage, elevation and human ability. I know that somebody actually kicked a 65 yard field goal in a regular season game. One kicker in one game that set a record. If we take 10 of the best kickers in the NFL, give them 5 opportunities each to kick a 65 yard field goal, one might actually do it. That would be 1 in 50 odds that a pro kicker could accomplish that feat. The reason we never see 65 yard field goal attempts is the odds are so overwhelming that it's almost never seen in a regular season game.

I also understand the fun in trying to do that. I'm a terrible shot with a revolver but I've used rifles since I was old enough to hunt. I didn't own any optics until I was in my 20's and shot a few deer with irons and a model 95 Winchester hand me down. I switched to optics as soon as I could afford a quality scope. So now I'm going down the rabbit hole and buying another lever rifle only in a pistol cartridge to see if I can use the same methods that people in the frontier west mastered to shoot at distances beyond what would be considered doable today. I'm not hunting with this rifle, just going to ring some steel. 44-40 was a very popular cartridge in the 1870's so 44 mag might be a good choice to reload. My rifle range only goes to 225 and we have a bunch of steel set up at that range.