Elmer Keith, the .44 Magnum, and the .357

[Lost River]

I used to shoot coyotes at 100-150 yards with a 7.5 inch Colt SAA, much to the astonishment of my hunting buddies who couldn't hit a damn thing with their rifle of the week. I used to tell them, "Pick a gun and a load, shoot that pair consistently and stop switching hardware." Often times, people who scoff are simply viewing the world through their own lens of inability.

That pretty much nails it.


The "experts" "professional gun writers" etc say that you need 1800-2000 FPE to kill elk. Funny thing is here is an example of using a 20" .308 at 615 yards. Producing roughly 1100 FPE. One shot, one dead elk.





This right here:

According to him he did, but he was a well known bull shipper around town according to those that knew him personally. The more or less accepted bullet energy to kill a deer is 1000 ft/lbs. At 600 yds this bullet has about 370 ft/lbs of energy and bullet drop would be in the neighborhood of 26 ft. and 2 seconds in flight.

Is pure nonsense.




When people keep parroting things that they have read on the net, or heard at the gun store counter, regurgitating the same bad information over and over, it is a pretty big indicator of a lack of any experience.

I had a guy on another forum tell me that at 100 yards a .44 magnum was not sufficiently lethal to hunt with, and that he limited his shots to 50 yards and in. This guy is a "gun writer". People actually read his crap and believe it.


Here is a pic of a 5x7 bull I took at a shade over 100 yards with my 5" M29. He took a single 300+ (I can't remember if it was a 310 or 320) grain hard cast SWC that went clean through him. He did a couple/few circles, then tipped over and was done by the time I walked over to him.



He was not a small animal and that 300 grain slug went through roughly 4 feet of him with ease and kept on going.


Further,

The chart that Borderland listed is literally apples to onions.

A few things. The ammo that was being used was not 240 grain ammo. It was Remington 180 grain spitzer (semi jacketed soft point), which at the time was loaded extremely hot. They would later back the velocity (and pressure) down considerably.

Continuing on with things almost everyone gets wrong(like parrots, they repeat the same wrong information), is that again, according to Elmer Keith himself, he did not use a 4" M29. He was using a 6.5" M29.

Here is a picture of the same gun, though the book photo (Hell I was There) lists it as a 6" it is actually a 6.5" according to Keith in the text.



This whole "not enough energy" comes from paper theorists. I can tell you from actually being out and hunting and stomping around in the same hunting grounds as Keith and shooting lots and lots of stuff from old stumps, to elk, to boulders, to coyotes, that you are not going to catch a .44 magnum in a catchers mitt as one "expert" suggested would be possible at an extended distance.

I can personally guarantee you that at 500 yards, your typical 240 grain hard cast semi wadcutter bullet starting at a modest 1300 FPS is going to go clean through your chest and out your back if you are unfortunate enough to catch one.

They bury themselves pretty deep into the hillside behind my target board at my cabin, and it is a bit further than 500.





This is the 3'x3' handgun target board that is set up at my cabin. It is 782 yards from the cabin bench to the target. Every now and then, we will break out the spotting scope and the 41s, 44s, 45s and shoot at it. It takes a good spotter to help you find your way onto the target but it is absolutely doable.

Heck, I have done it with a Glock .45 ACP.

I've spent my fair amount of time shooting IHMSA, and spotted for a couple of friends that were regional champions.

Excellent shooters practicing twice a week on the 300+ m ranges, week after week, for years, carefully casting their own bullets (commercial were not good enough) tinkering to improve their loads, shooting with 7.5" 454 Cassull revovers and custom handguns.

I'm sure none of them could get close to this feat of hitting 2-out-of-3 at 600 yds on a deer with a normal 4-5" 44 mag revolver. Not mentioning in one of the shots the buck was moving...

But hey, anything can happen

While I don't have a dog in the fight one way or the other in regards to if Elmer Keith was prone to exaggerate or not, but I definitely can tell you that the shots he stated he made are without question doable.

A big clue that tells me that someone does not have any truly long range iron sight handgun shooting experience is when they read Elmer Keith's account and immediately start calling Keith a liar.

The funny thing is that Keith's account of how he held up all of the front sight, just a bit of ramp, and positioned the deer on top, is exactly what you would do to make a hit at that range. I have shot hundreds of rounds in the 400, 500, 600 yard range and can attest to this as fact.

Tiro, Just to get things straight, in the parts highlighted. According to Keith himself, he fired 4 shots, made 2 hits and was using a 6.5" gun.

Like I said, I don't have a dog in the fight as to if people choose to believe, but people should at least get the facts straight, otherwise they are doing exactly what they are badmouthing Elmer Keith for, exaggerating details.

[Lost River]

Here is a pic shooting targets across a dried up reservoir, out to I think it was 500 or so yards. The dust would let us see our hits and adjust.



A coffee can full of 44s and some shade is a good way to spend a couple hours!




And up on Horse Heaven Pass on the Pahsimeroi Valley that Elmer loved so much.



Same valley, and same little part of the valley.

[Malamute]

^^^ The truth.

[Trooper224]

The "experts" "professional gun writers" etc say that you need 1800-2000 FPE to kill elk.

I dropped a Bull Elk at 100 yards with the M29 and load mentioned upthread (950fps from that four inch barrel, bullet was a 250 grain hardcast), so I have to call eye rolling bullshit on that. Years ago, when I lived in the wide open southwestern part of our state, I was heavily into long range handgunning. Shooting didn't really start until a hundred yards. I used to work with people who thought a handgun was only good at point blank range. I once got into an argument with my ass hat Lieutenant about that very subject. Rather, he was trying to give me a typically condescending lecture on pistolcraft. We'd just finished rifle qual and were at the 100 yard line on the range. I lost patience, drew my issued Glock 21 and nailed a ten inch steel plate at 100 yards with five consecutive shots in about as many seconds. I then told him, "That's fuck you five times in a row." That got me a letter of reprimand from the Captain, but it was well worth it.

The gun writers anyone should listen to are all dead.

[Lost River]

I dropped a Bull Elk at 100 yards with the M29 and load mentioned upthread (950fps from that four inch barrel, bullet was a 250 grain hardcast), so I have to call eye rolling bullshit on that. Years ago, when I lived in the wide open southwestern part of our state, I was heavily into long range handgunning. Shooting didn't really start until a hundred yards. I used to work with people who thought a handgun was only good at point blank range. I once got into an argument with my ass hat Lieutenant about that very subject. Rather, he was trying to give me a typically condescending lecture on pistolcraft. We'd just finished rifle qual and were at the 100 yard line on the range. I lost patience, drew my issued Glock 21 and nailed a ten inch steel plate at 100 yards with five consecutive shots in about as many seconds. I then told him, "That's fuck you five times in a row." That got me a letter of reprimand from the Captain, but it was well worth it.

The gun writers anyone should listen to are all dead.

You may be my brother from another mother!

[Borderland]

I've always been interested in the 44 mag but never owned one. I'm slowly getting the components together to load for it. All I need now is some bullets. I traded some .357 bullets to a guy on another forum for some OF brass and found some dies on ebay. Scouring the auction sites as we speak for a 4" 29 or 629. They seem to have jumped up in price considerably in the last year or so.

[Crazy Dane]

You may be my brother from another mother!

I believe that we have many brothers here.





When I did this ^ more than one person went sideways when I told them I killed her with a .44 Special, it being such a week round and such. Granted it was only a 70 yard shot.

[okie john]

Learning to hit things with a handgun at long range is not hard. All you have to do is

1. Read what guys like Keith and McGivern wrote about it.
2. Take it seriously.
3. Equip yourself with the right guns and loads.
4. Try the things they describe.

Access to a large dusty field is a major advantage.

You'd be amazed how far you can reach with a handgun once you understand the principles and learn to apply them. Even a J-frame with good sights (which I recognize is a rare beast) can reach out to 100 yards or more. But you have to believe that it's possible and you have to work at it. It's also a highly perishable skill, so you have to practice it constantly.

Knowing that you can hammer an IPSC target with a pistol at ranges that most people can't manage with a rifle is a very comforting skill to have if you spend much time in the woods.


Okie John

[okie john]

I believe that we have many brothers here.

We do.

When I did this ^ more than one person went sideways when I told them I killed her with a .44 Special, it being such a week round and such. Granted it was only a 70 yard shot.

I got one somewhat farther than that with a very early 629 when I was in my late teens, hunting among a bunch of my father's friends who were all using rifles. Stern lectures ensued, but my deer was just as dead as theirs. The load was 10 grains of Unique and a cheap, machine-cast SWC.


Okie John

[Lost River]

I believe that we have many brothers here.





When I did this ^ more than one person went sideways when I told them I killed her with a .44 Special, it being such a week round and such. Granted it was only a 70 yard shot.

"Only"

Sometimes those "Only shots can be quite tricky! And when you are dealing with whitetail that can turn and be gone in a flash, I would say that that was a great shot! I personally am of the opinion that any deer, elk, moose, caribou, etc taken with a handgun is a trophy. I don't care about horns or points.

Speaking of "Only" shots. What I consider my single best rifle shot on a big game animal was on a deer that was (If I recall right, it has been a good number of years now)only a touch shy of 400 yards. I believe it was lasered right at 395 or 398 or right in there. What made it such a memorable shot was that I could only see from the neck up of the buck as he was bedded down. Not a long shot.

My buddy actually spotted him and we got our rifles out, and I did the math to include adjusting for the angle. then I did the math again. The firing solution was the same each time. This was pre ballistic computer days. He did his math for the shot using his rifle to back me up in case my shot did not go well.

We laid out our rifles, and waited a couple minutes for the breeze to calm down and I made the shot. I aimed for the ear hole of the Muley buck and hit one inch below the ear hole. He just rolled over.

Only 400, but still I remember it as "That shot". Another .308.

With about the most un-cool, un-tactical .308 you could possibly imagine, but it was a shooting machine. It was an old blued long action Savage with a 26" stainless heavy barrel. I found a laminate stock for it and stuck that on it. I topped it with a Weaver 4-16 Target scope that tracked extremely well. I shot a load that used a 175 grain SMK in it pretty much exclusively for everything from rockchucks to deer and it was deadly. Basically it duplicated the M118LR.

The only reason I sold it was to finance my Sako TRG .308.

Learning to hit things with a handgun at long range is not hard. All you have to do is

1. Read what guys like Keith and McGivern wrote about it.
2. Take it seriously.
3. Equip yourself with the right guns and loads.
4. Try the things they describe.

Access to a large dusty field is a major advantage.

You'd be amazed how far you can reach with a handgun once you understand the principles and learn to apply them. Even a J-frame with good sights (which I recognize is a rare beast) can reach out to 100 yards or more. But you have to believe that it's possible and you have to work at it. It's also a highly perishable skill, so you have to practice it constantly.

Knowing that you can hammer an IPSC target with a pistol at ranges that most people can't manage with a rifle is a very comforting skill to have if you spend much time in the woods.


Okie John

People have been underestimating what is possible since handguns were first brought forth!