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Thread: Fix Sight Revolver Zeroing

  1. #1
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    Fix Sight Revolver Zeroing

    When I worked for Ruger in the 1980s fixed sight revolvers for government contract orders were commonly zeroed using the specified ammunition provided as government furnished material. While the specs varied in accordance with the contract specifics most .38 Special or .357 revolvers would commonly be shot off sandbags at 20 yards, aiming at a 2-inch bull, or if at other ranges the aiming point was scaled to one inch per ten yards.

    At the 20 yard distance most often used, a 3" circle was printed on the target, surrounding the 2-inch aiming point and tangent to it at 6:00. Five out of six rounds were usually required to strike within the 3" circle. The correct front sight height would be determined by firing a ten-board sample of revolvers with the contract ammunition to obtain the correct elevation, that sight then being installed on all revolvers for that batch. Windage adjustments were made, when necessary by rotating the barrel in the frame using directed strikes with a babbit bar against the ejector rod shroud forged onto the barrel.

    In revolvers point of impact for elevation is determined more by bullet weight than velocity. In .38 Special either standard pressure or +P loads of the same bullet weight generally shoot close to the same point of aim. As a general rule heavy bullets shoot higher, lighter bullets shoot lower. In ordinary production intended for civilian retail sales it was common to use .38 Special 148-grain wadcutter ammunition in .357s also because this provides a useful point of impact for most commonly used ammunition. Lead wadcutters also provide a better functional check to detect "spitters" in which a new fit-up might over-rotate the cylinder (Up to about 5 degrees being intended and OK to compensate for in-service wear).

    To determine how much to adjust the fixed sights use the formula X=RE/D where:

    X is the amount of correction needed, such as shortening the front sight to move the impact up, or installing a higher front sight to lower point of impact, or rotating the barrel tighter in the frame, moving the front sight left to move impact to the right, etc.

    R is the sight Radius in inches.

    E is the error correction needed between point of aim and point of impact, and

    D is the target distance.

    Again ALL dimensions are in inches.

    For a gun which shoots low a heavier bullet or light dressing of the front sight will normally fix things. If the gun shoots high try a lighter bullet. In the worst case you need to fit a taller front sight.

    If a windage adjustment is needed scribe a light witness mark on the frame to aid observation and then turn the barrel to tighten or loosen very slightly to bring impact into alignment. At the factory this is normally done with calibrated strikes using a lead hammer or babbit bar against the barrel ejector shroud. In extreme cases an old cop gun may have a bent frame from being used as an impact weapon, and/or the crane may be bent out of alignment. A competent gunsmith can fix these but extreme cases will require removing the barrel, refacing the straightened frame and re-installling the barrel. In light alloy frame airweight guns special fiixtures are needed to gently turn the barrel without frame damage. NOT a job for the hobbyist.

    But in most cases there is absolutely no reason why a 2-inch .38 snubby cannot be zeroed precisely and shoot accurately. My S&W Model 36 former basket case reworked by Sandy Garrett of NoVa Gun Works now shoots ten-ring, 25-yard groups with wadcutters, and quality defense or service loads should do likewise in a mechanically correct gun.

  2. #2
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    All my S&W fixed-sight .38 and .357 revolvers and my 4" Colt OP shoot to POA with 158-grain ammo, with the sole exception of my 642 which needs 125-130-grain bullets. The 642 has its own stash of practice and carry ammo.

  3. #3
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    All my S&W fixed-sight .38 and .357 revolvers and my 4" Colt OP shoot to POA with 158-grain ammo, with the sole exception of my 642 which needs 125-130-grain bullets. The 642 has its own stash of practice and carry ammo.
    Agree. In my 642 the Winchester RA38B 130 grain +P for carry. And American Eagle 130 gr AE38K for training.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  4. #4
    Member Zeke38's Avatar
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    I've been helping a revolver newbie with a sock draw Ruger Speed Six in 357. Having been a Smith guy since Air Force days in the 60s I've developed an affection for the Speed Six. Shoots POA with 158s and is a stout but handy revolver. The only weakness I can see with the design is the spring that operates the trigger. It has one long leg and one short. Hopefully my neighbor doesn't wear that spring out, it appears that it could be prone to breakage.



    Casual observation on my part on the trigger spring, but we will wait and see. A hundred rounds every three to six months we'll probably never know. I've mentioned a bobbed hammer to him but he is new to revolvers and likes the SA capabilities of the weapon.

    Outlook, I appreciate your sharing such good and little known info, from the halls of Ruger.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke38 View Post
    I've been helping a revolver newbie with a sock draw Ruger Speed Six in 357. Having been a Smith guy since Air Force days in the 60s I've developed an affection for the Speed Six. Shoots POA with 158s and is a stout but handy revolver. The only weakness I can see with the design is the spring that operates the trigger. It has one long leg and one short. Hopefully my neighbor doesn't wear that spring out, it appears that it could be prone to breakage.



    Casual observation on my part on the trigger spring, but we will wait and see. A hundred rounds every three to six months we'll probably never know. I've mentioned a bobbed hammer to him but he is new to revolvers and likes the SA capabilities of the weapon.

    Outlook, I appreciate your sharing such good and little known info, from the halls of Ruger.
    Wolff Gun Springs sells a Speed-Six/Security-Six spring kit, or at least they did.

  6. #6
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    Fix Sight Revolver Zeroing

    Outpost75, thank you for this post. While I generally prefer fixed sights on semiautos, fixed sights on revolvers are a source of concern for me, since I know that correcting any issues might not be easy or inexpensive. At least one fixed sight revolver is about to be tried with different weight bullets to determine the extent to which that helps.
    Last edited by BillSWPA; 05-26-2021 at 03:42 PM.
    Any legal information I may post is general information, and is not legal advice. Such information may or may not apply to your specific situation. I am not your attorney unless an attorney-client relationship is separately and privately established.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    Outpost75, thank you for this post. While I generally prefer fixed sights on semiautos, fixed sights on revolvers are a source of concern for me, since I know that correcting any issues might not be easy or inexpensive. At least one fixed sight revolver is about to be tried with different weight bullets to determine the extent to which that helps.
    Right and left point of impact is also influenced by grip, whether you use a straight-back "row the boat" trigger squeeze in DA or if you "stage" the trigger. Impact is also affected by varying recoil impulse with different loads. It is best to determine what load is most accurate and shoots closest to the sights before making any changes to the gun. If you are cross-dominant, i.e. left handed shooter aiming with dominant right eye, that will affect windage because recoil forces are not symmetrical. Also makes a difference if you shoot Weaver vs. Isoceles.

  8. #8
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    .... Windage adjustments were made, when necessary by rotating the barrel in the frame using directed strikes with a babbit bar against the ejector rod shroud forged onto the barrel.


    If a windage adjustment is needed scribe a light witness mark on the frame to aid observation and then turn the barrel to tighten or loosen very slightly to bring impact into alignment. At the factory this is normally done with calibrated strikes using a lead hammer or babbit bar against the barrel ejector shroud. In extreme cases an old cop gun may have a bent frame from being used as an impact weapon, and/or the crane may be bent out of alignment. A competent gunsmith can fix these but extreme cases will require removing the barrel, refacing the straightened frame and re-installling the barrel. In light alloy frame airweight guns special fiixtures are needed to gently turn the barrel without frame damage. NOT a job for the hobbyist.

    But in most cases there is absolutely no reason why a 2-inch .38 snubby cannot be zeroed precisely and shoot accurately. My S&W Model 36 former basket case reworked by Sandy Garrett of NoVa Gun Works now shoots ten-ring, 25-yard groups with wadcutters, and quality defense or service loads should do likewise in a mechanically correct gun.

    Could you give a bit more detail on how this was done? Is the barrel and frame supported on a padded wood block, or...?

    Is the "calibrated strikes" mainly from experience? How large or heavy of a bar or lead hammer is used? Are they available, or how would someone make one? Is it possible you have any pictures of this procedure or the tools?

    I have a couple Smiths I want to adjust windage on and would like to know the procedure to do it correctly. Its very difficult to make very small changes with barrel removal tools.

    Thanks!
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  9. #9
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    Babbitt bar

    S&W uses a small babbitt bar about 3/4" diameter and 10 inches long. At Ruger they used a 1 pound lead mallet case from the Hensley & Gibbs mold. If barrel has shrouded ejector rod just support frame on bench block and give the barrel a good whack. Done by feel and experience. For skinny S&W "pencil" barrel, soft brass clamp is placed around barrel lug and snugged, and the clamp tapped smartly. If barrel is pinned, just move barrel until it binds against barrel oin, as only slight movement is needed.

    Light allow frames are delicate and frame is supported in a special fixture. Even then there is risk of deformity or cracking frame, even when done at factory.

  10. #10
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Thank you.

    I found some lead hammers online, nobody had anything in stock locally, and I think all I saw in online searches may be too large/heavy. It occurred to me I may be able to use a Lyman ingot mold and set a handle when pouring.

    I may be able to use a section of copper water pipe as a mold to make a 3/4" or 1" lead bar. Guess one would have to experiment some and see if it releases.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

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