It's becoming... inhospitable...

[Trooper224]

Those sporting clays and three gun shooters are sketchy!!

One problem with crime statistics in big cities is they are big. While I have been to many of them, Chicago is the one I have the most experience in. I get into this discussion with one of my friends, who wants to tell me what it is like in Chicago, based on an extensive knowledge base cultivated by reading information on the internet. I have spent considerable time there over four decades, and recently (prior to the CV) I was on the ground there every 4-5 weeks. Chicago has a huge land mass and population, alotta shit is going to happen in Chicago. There are places you do not wanna go because you might get kilt, and there are places you do not wanna go because parking you car for the day will cost more than you made that day. But it is all called Chicago. None of this means I necessarily WANT to go there for a reason other than work, unless I get to stay in The Palmer House and eat at Miller's Pub. Or Gene & Georgetti. Shit, wait...

As far as STL I just happened to have a conversation yesterday with one of my customers there that has a shop downtown, and I had an opportunity to ask him if they had any issues with any of the unrest, and he said no problems (and he is where I would have suspected they might have).

Which feeds into my growing belief that these things are occurring in specific and fairly isolated areas of the country. Last week I spoke with a friend from Germany, reading their media, like ours, you'd think the entire country is embroiled in a massive culture war. He sounded a bit disappointed to hear things are pretty much as normal here in the heartland.

[BehindBlueI's]

For years I had family in St. Louis, so I've been there more than once and I've been to most of the major metro areas in the US, as well as some outside of it. I'll admit I'm more of a urbanite. I spent years living in rural areas and was happy to leave every time. With most of them I think the "stupid places and stupid prizes" adage applies. Stick to reasonable places at reasonable times and you'll likely have an enjoyable visit. St. Louis is always in contention for the top violence award. But, as with most urban centers much of that violence is concentrated in areas I'd have no desire to visit unless I was getting paid for it.

Pretty much. Turtle Park, St. Louis Zoo, Arch, Riverboat tours, Missouri Botanical Gardens, City Museum, Budweiser tour, the park with all the huge sculptures who's name escapes me at the moment, etc. etc. The neighborhood around "The Shaved Duck" is the most "transitional" I go to when I'm there. I've been going there off and on since the late 90's with zero issues.

I get the 3S mantra, but I also don't intend to be scared to go places I want to go because of incidents such as what's under discussion.

[Hambo]

If you judge a city by drunken after-hours partygoers, everywhere is a shit hole.

Yep. You'd have to avoid most college towns, cities with sports teams, live music festivals, everyplace on St. Patrick's Day, Mardi Gras in NOLA...

[Bio]

Pretty much. Turtle Park, St. Louis Zoo, Arch, Riverboat tours, Missouri Botanical Gardens, City Museum, Budweiser tour, the park with all the huge sculptures who's name escapes me at the moment, etc. etc. The neighborhood around "The Shaved Duck" is the most "transitional" I go to when I'm there. I've been going there off and on since the late 90's with zero issues.

I get the 3S mantra, but I also don't intend to be scared to go places I want to go because of incidents such as what's under discussion.

Laumeier Park has all the sculptures. I'll also throw in Forest Park that has all the free museums (as well as the free zoo, you mentioned).

[CraigS]

No doubt. The elected officials of St Louis put him in that position with bad policies. What a sorry state of affairs.


That any sworn law enforcement officer should be expected to sit quietly in his patrol car while a mob destroys it in the name of placating those thugs is absolutely insane. Under identical conditions, I am not sure that my response to someone opening one of my patrol car's doors would have been as "peaceful".

After the thread here about how to get out if caught in a 'protest' my wife and I decided that we will not stop the car. It will move at a walking speed. As soon as a window is broken we start shooting. If a door were opened, it would likely be a mag dump and a reload, and the car would start moving at more than walking speed. That officer's superiors should be fired and black listed so they never work in law enforcement again, anywhere.

[RJ]

After the thread here about how to get out if caught in a 'protest' my wife and I decided that we will not stop the car. It will move at a walking speed. As soon as a window is broken we start shooting. If a door were opened, it would likely be a mag dump and a reload, and the car would start moving at more than walking speed. That officer's superiors should be fired and black listed so they never work in law enforcement again, anywhere.

I was reading an interview by ACLDN of Marcus Wynne, a trainer in high-threat protection. One of the things he suggested in the article was to develop the skill to keep moving slowly:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/avo...-while-driving

"And one last skill that gets overlooked: the ability to drive forward slowly. Why slowly? When people get surrounded by rioters/protesters/mobs attacking the vehicle, the panic reaction is to stomp on the gas and start running over people. While there is a time and place for that, especially in the US right now where those incidents will be live-streamed in real time, the ability to stay cool and continue to move forward slowly at 5-10 mph enables you to use the mass of the vehicle to push forward, allows people in front plenty of space/time to get out of the way and any video would show that you didn’t use the car as a weapon to run over protesters. "

I thought it was a pretty good read.

[mmc45414]

Which feeds into my growing belief that these things are occurring in specific and fairly isolated areas of the country. Last week I spoke with a friend from Germany, reading their media, like ours, you'd think the entire country is embroiled in a massive culture war. He sounded a bit disappointed to hear things are pretty much as normal here in the heartland.

Agree, and IMO they even occur in specific areas of given communities. I live the the Dayton, OH area, and there are places in Dayton I do not go, places I avoid, places I am probably glad I am packing, and places I love to go out to dinner. My wife's business is located there in a reclaimed area that has become quite nice. But there are other suburban dwellers that refer to it as monolithic and won't go. I don't want to live in the city limits because of some of the politics, but some people act like it is all Mogadishu.

OTOH, I live in a community that is a township with a very low crime rate, and almost all of the crime occurs way over on the other side near the interstate. But I live about a mile from an intersection where three other jurisdictions meet, one with a moderately higher crime rate, and one with a significant crime rate, and one that packs a buttload of crime into a small area. But none of this occurs near those corners of those areas, but if this were in a big city like Chicago it would all be called Chicago. IMO you need to be aware of where you are at, not just what zip code you are in.

I get the 3S mantra, but I also don't intend to be scared to go places I want to go because of incidents such as what's under discussion.

I think maybe there is a 3G angle also, so much of what happens is Gangsters doing Gangster Shit to Gangsters (the listed charges almost always include Weapons Under Disability). Avoiding interaction with gangsters and avoiding areas where gangsters congregate is probably a good first step, Nancy Reagan probably would have saved more lives if her tag line had been If You Do Drugs, Pay Your Dealer.

Working my sales jobs I have had to travel some places I wouldn't go if I didn't need to, while avoiding trouble as best I can, and a lot can be assessed by observation. If there is a Starbucks, it is probably safe to stop for gas. If there is a Cracker Barrel, probably an OK place to get your hotel. And (spoiler alert: sexist comment follows...) if there are attractive, well groomed women walking down the street, it is probably good to find a place for lunch.

[Borderland]

Agree, and IMO they even occur in specific areas of given communities. I live the the Dayton, OH area, and there are places in Dayton I do not go, places I avoid, places I am probably glad I am packing, and places I love to go out to dinner. My wife's business is located there in a reclaimed area that has become quite nice. But there are other suburban dwellers that refer to it as monolithic and won't go. I don't want to live in the city limits because of some of the politics, but some people act like it is all Mogadishu.

I have a relative that lives in Beaver Creek and has for 20 years. He's never said anything to me about areas he won't go to in Dayton, but then he doesn't work there so maybe he just avoids the city.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Haven't been to St. Louis in many years. Stayed in a hotel near a fancy neighborhood. Told the hotel got repurposed to something else. Anyway, nearby there was a bank that had a noted coin collection. Some neat stuff like an aluminum proof set from the 1800's - all the coins up to the $20 gold piece in aluminum. It was connected to the mall by a walkway, so I go. I'm on the second floor and look down and see two gangs of young folks arguing about whether some young woman is a "ho".

I leave the premises and avoid leaving the hotel for the rest of the short business visit (conference was there).

[CraigS]

RJ that is a great link. Thanks for posting it.