Mas Ayoob Is 45 Auto Obsolete?

[Bucky]

One hundred plus posts into a caliber debate and no-one has advocated the superiority of the 9x23 Winchester over the bourgeois, plebian, base, prole chamberings of the unwashed poors?

.356 TSW FTW!

[Phaedrus]

If we unwashed plebs can still own firearms in 2121 we'll still be arguing over this one! Even if we have directed energy weapons by then some old timer will still want his stub gun. The argument has long been settled for me- I sold my last .45 ACP seven or eight years ago with no real intention of getting another. Sold my last 1911 around the same time (and if I ever get another it would probably be another ,38 Super). The 9mm is adequate for my needs. I hope to never need to shoot a human being but if I must I hope I'll have my Beretta 1301 or Bren 805 at hand!

Apropos of nothing I think Claude Werner makes some valid points about civilian shootings and caliber. A cop or soldier will have different expectations about a successful shooting. The former will be trying to destroy the enemy and the latter is trying to take someone into custody. If the person they shoot runs off and escapes that's a fail, but that result would be nearly ideal for an armed citizen. Mostly I will be seeking to break contact, not kill or detain my assailant. It would probably be a bad idea to equip patrol officers with .32 ACP guns but that doesn't automatically make them a no-go for civilian CCW.

[paherne]

One hundred plus posts into a caliber debate and no-one has advocated the superiority of the 9x23 Winchester over the bourgeois, plebian, base, prole chamberings of the unwashed poors?

A .356 TSW loaded with 135 grain Hornady Critical Duty pills at about 1200 fps would be wonderful in a Staccato P.

[willie]

I have 8000 once fired 45 Auto cases. Hell no, this round is not obsolete!

[revchuck38]

I have 8000 once fired 45 Auto cases. Hell no, this round is not obsolete!

I recently loaded about 2k 230-grain coated RNLs and another 500 225-grain RNFPs (roll crimped for use in my 22-4). I approve @willie's message!

[DDTSGM]

Mostly I will be seeking to break contact, not kill or detain my assailant. It would probably be a bad idea to equip patrol officers with .32 ACP guns but that doesn't automatically make them a no-go for civilian CCW.

I think if you are the mindset that you are going to shoot to break contact, you might want to back out a little and reevaluate the feasibility of that occurring.

I think that when you look at anything but a CNC shot it is safe to say the bad guy gets the biggest vote on whether the fight is over our not.

Although, Doctor Martin Fackler discoursed on wound ballistics several decades ago, much of what he wrote is still valid. He one stated that, in order, the reason gunfights stop are:

1) psychological response to being shot (may be immediate or delayed);

2) disruption of motor nerve impulse - CNS hits (pretty much immediate);

3) disruption of major organ function (google dead man's ten seconds);

4) shock due to blood loss.

So, if you run into the descendants of William Matix and Michael Platt, the break contact thing will probably be a no/go.

Primary goal should always be to stop the threat. Placement reigns supreme in that endeavor.

[Phaedrus]

I think if you are the mindset that you are going to shoot to break contact, you might want to back out a little and reevaluate the feasibility of that occurring.

I think that when you look at anything but a CNC shot it is safe to say the bad guy gets the biggest vote on whether the fight is over our not.

Although, Doctor Martin Fackler discoursed on wound ballistics several decades ago, much of what he wrote is still valid. He one stated that, in order, the reason gunfights stop are:

1) psychological response to being shot (may be immediate or delayed);

2) disruption of motor nerve impulse - CNS hits (pretty much immediate);

3) disruption of major organ function (google dead man's ten seconds);

4) shock due to blood loss.

So, if you run into the descendants of William Matix and Michael Platt, the break contact thing will probably be a no/go.

Primary goal should always be to stop the threat. Placement reigns supreme in that endeavor.

I'm not saying that Werner is right nor wrong, just that it's not based on a theory but rather his observations of the real world. I think everyone can agree that it would be awesome to have a magic stasis ray that instantly disables an attacker and freezes him like a statue. We don't have that so we have our meager tools. What Werner is saying is that what cops and soldiers are trying to achieve is different than what a citizen is trying to attain. Another way to understand this is to look at predators in the wild. A prey animal will by definition fight to the death as it has everything to lose. But a predator will rarely fight to the death; a single meal usually isn't worth a high risk of death. William Matix and Michael Platt were certainly tough and determined but they were, in this context, the prey animals fighting to escape and survive.

Not all actions are rational but most actions are guided by a sense of self interest and an urge towards self preservation. Werner asserts that when an armed citizen fights back with a firearm she's usually successful regardless of the caliber. I'm not sure where his statistics come from so I can't comment on their veracity in a specific way but I wouldn't be surprised if he's correct. i carry a 9mm, but it's probably not an automatic death sentence to carry something smaller.

[JohnO]

What Werner is saying is that what cops and soldiers are trying to achieve is different than what a citizen is trying to attain.

In the moment if someone is trying to kill you, no matter what hat you’re wearing you want the same result, stop them!

[DDTSGM]

I'm not saying that Werner is right nor wrong, just that it's not based on a theory but rather his observations of the real world. I think everyone can agree that it would be awesome to have a magic stasis ray that instantly disables an attacker and freezes him like a statue. We don't have that so we have our meager tools. What Werner is saying is that what cops and soldiers are trying to achieve is different than what a citizen is trying to attain. Another way to understand this is to look at predators in the wild. A prey animal will by definition fight to the death as it has everything to lose. But a predator will rarely fight to the death; a single meal usually isn't worth a high risk of death. William Matix and Michael Platt were certainly tough and determined but they were, in this context, the prey animals fighting to escape and survive.

Not all actions are rational but most actions are guided by a sense of self interest and an urge towards self preservation. Werner asserts that when an armed citizen fights back with a firearm she's usually successful regardless of the caliber. I'm not sure where his statistics come from so I can't comment on their veracity in a specific way but I wouldn't be surprised if he's correct. i carry a 9mm, but it's probably not an automatic death sentence to carry something smaller.

excuse me i'm typining one fingered and not correcting.

the doj/ucr/fbi did a trifecta of books studying officer involved shootings, they were entitled:

"Killed in the Line of Duty" The Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports Section selected and analyzed 51 incidents of police officer killings in order to evaluate the psychology of the offender, the behavior of the police officer, and circumstances in which the police officer lost his or her life. 1992;

full pdf: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-li...aw-enforcement

"In the Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement" This publication details the results of a three-year study of felonious assaults against law enforcement officers including information from the offenders, the officers, and the circumstances surrounding the events.

full pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SkeWCj6uSCYy4w

"Violent Encounters - a Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers Paperback" This is the last document of the series "Killed in the Line of Duty" and certainly provides important training information for every law enforcement trainer. WHETHER OR NOT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT DEPARTMENTS FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDATIONS SUGGESTED REMAINS TO BE SEEN. A must for all law enforcement trainers.

This is not a story. It is more like a textbook. I learned quite a bit from this book and have suggested it's reading to many friends. I think the average ccw holder will benefit from reading this. If you can absorb information from others' experience, you would be giving yourself an advantage that others may not have. (google reviews - seconded by myself)

full pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p8rS-_Boj-URlS

The things that I can tell you are that:

1) Things happen when you least expect them. Yeah, it's great to be walking around feeling all smug 'cuz you're 'in yellow' and all the sheeple are 'in white' BUT I guarantee you that at some point something will happen that startles the bejeebees out of you. It happens.

2) The choice to go kinetic is most often the subject's. Often officers are coming from behind. A sub second drawer may not save them so much as a deeply in-grained disposition to instantly move, while drawing, and take the fight to the bad guy.

3) You don't get to chose whether the bad guy you are dealt is drunk, drugged, simply enraged, or a seasoned street combat veteran. Likewise you get the mindset they arrive with for the first portion of the encounter.

and so on....

tl:dr - be alert, have a gun, move, shot to stop.

[Phaedrus]

Interesting stuff! I'm one-fingering as well due to a wrecked shoulder. One thing I'll note- and repeat because it seems to be getting ignored- is that I'm specifically discussing private citizen shootings and not police and specifically suggesting that they may be two very different animals. I've read that report though and it's a great read.