Mas Ayoob Is 45 Auto Obsolete?

[Navin Johnson]

For me, rather than a dick measuring contest on x vs. y....

I would like to see quantifiable data on who is skilled enough at shot placement and knowledgeable enough about anatomy that the difference between x and y might be meaningful.

[Duelist]

I've always been under the impression that modern .45 ACP loads like HST or Gold Dot have reliable expansion, at least in the testing I've seen and read about.

Me, too.

Look, read the stickies by @DocGKR: https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition until you are satisfied that you understand them, can quote them in your sleep, or until you find “the list” for the weapon/caliber you are trying to feed.

Then pick a load from the appropriate list for the application, buy some of that and make sure it works in your chosen firearm. Then buy enough of it (a case? 2?) so you don’t have to worry about ammo droughts, and stop spending extra processing power worrying about it. Instead, go practice.

[45dotACP]

I think perhaps folks might be over emphasizing the importance of caliber in a service handgun.

All service handgun calibers suck for stopping dudes immediately. They are all still better than trying to win a lethal force encounter with your Kung Fu skills. If it just so happens that you think a .45 is awesome, and you shoot it well, then fantastic! If you think 9mm is where it's at, then fantastic!

Practice though. Get good with the dang thing because when I re-qualified for my CCL it would surprise you just how bad most people are with even a .22

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Suvorov]

I'm sure there'd be some other niche contrarian affinity group.......like Anglo-philes raving about how the 455 Webley was the last true fighting gun, and all revolvers since then are for pussies.

The Russians are busy binge watching our "Two Mommies" Army commercial while picking their teeth with the bones of dead Chechen separatists they shot with 9x21 Gyurza.

I “liked” because I couldn’t “LOVE”!

🤣

[Baldanders]

Completely agree!

Mas' lengthy career and training curriculum suggests that he is quite astute in the field of self-defense and training: https://massadayoobgroup.com/classes/

Some of us grew up on his magazine articles!

I read his analysis of the infamous "FBI shoot-out" well before I could own a firearm. I remember him analyzing the pros and cons of semiautos and revolvers for police duty when seeing wheelguns in LE holsters was common.

Man, I am old.

[js475]

I’ve seen the data the FBI provides to other LE agencies and don’t remember seeing anything where they claimed 9mm produced better terminal performance in gel testing than the .40 or .45. It’s been a little while since I read through everything but I recall the data and summaries showing that they all performed roughly the same in testing. The 9mm was chosen because, if all three cartridges performed the same, then the 9mm got you more rounds, less recoil, less wear and tear on the guns themselves, lower cost, etc. I believe that’s what @TC215 meant when he said the 9mm wasn’t only chosen because of terminal performance.

I’ve seen numerous people try to compile ammunition performance data from real world shootings and all the results never appear scientific. The problem with trying to collect data from real world shooting is that the shootings themselves are almost never “repeatable” which is a big problem for any kind of scientific experiment. Different people who were shot have different body types, wear different clothing, and are shot in parts of their body that, while pretty close in location, are absolutely not the same spot. To actually generate valid data you’d have to shoot a bunch of people with similar body types, wearing similar clothing, in the exact same spots on their bodies, using the same type of gun, etc. Also, what kind of effectiveness are we talking about? Whether the round in question penetrated, retained its mass and expanded to a certain size after penetrating the body of the person shot? Or how effective the round was at “stopping” the person? How do you account for pure psychological stops in testing? I’m sure most people who stop after being shot didn’t stop because the bullet shut them down biologically. People just don’t want to get shot so many of them run off when shot anywhere.

I don't have the exact quote with me, but I do recall the FBI claiming that 9mm loads had superior terminal performance compared to whatever .40 and .45 loads they tested using their scoring system. I may be misremembering it, but enough people have repeated that claim to the point where I'm wondering how exactly the FBI came to that conclusion.

I 100% agree with your statement on real world shooting data. I think there's no way we can ever definitively prove how much effect, if any, a larger diameter bullet has on the results of actual shootings. There are just too many confounding variables at play to isolate bullet caliber as the determining factor in a gunfight.

The only thing I could maybe see being useful would be autopsy or surgery reports where a bullet just barely missed or just barely grazed an artery/CNS structure. This is probably very rare, but I'm sure it happens. As an analogy, just think of times on the square range when a round barely cut or barely missed on either side of the A/C or C/D scoring lines on a USPSA target, with those lines representing an artery or nerve. Usually I can count 1 or 2 rounds that did this after a few strings of fire on the same target.

Again, I'm not trying to endorse carrying a larger caliber for the sake of the probability of grazing a vital structure. I think the reasons for the FBI going to 9mm make a lot of sense given the other advantages.

Me, too.

Look, read the stickies by @DocGKR: https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition until you are satisfied that you understand them, can quote them in your sleep, or until you find “the list” for the weapon/caliber you are trying to feed.

Then pick a load from the appropriate list for the application, buy some of that and make sure it works in your chosen firearm. Then buy enough of it (a case? 2?) so you don’t have to worry about ammo droughts, and stop spending extra processing power worrying about it. Instead, go practice.

Agreed. I'm not losing any sleep over handgun calibers. I mostly carry 9mm, but occasionally I'll strap on my .45 if I'm feeling like it that day. I'm confident with both, shoot both well, and in the end I'm pretty agnostic about caliber. I don't think choosing one over the other will impact the results of any defensive encounter I'm likely to find myself in as a civilian. I just find it irritating and childish when people start arguing ".45 knockdown power. 2 World Wars!!" or "everything except 9mm is obsolete and you're wrong if you carry anything else". Unfortunately the latter crowd seems to be growing.

[TC215]

All service handgun calibers suck for stopping dudes immediately.

Which is almost exactly what the FBI said in their justification for the switch back to 9mm. That, coupled with having more ammo on board, reduced wear and tear on weapons, and advances in bullet design, was the reasoning for the change.

[JohnO]

I think perhaps folks might be over emphasizing the importance of caliber in a service handgun.

All service handgun calibers suck for stopping dudes immediately. They are all still better than trying to win a lethal force encounter with your Kung Fu skills. If it just so happens that you think a .45 is awesome, and you shoot it well, then fantastic! If you think 9mm is where it's at, then fantastic!

Practice though. Get good with the dang thing because when I re-qualified for my CCL it would surprise you just how bad most people are with even a .22

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

That's a No Shit Sherlock statement. In the end it will all come down to the 3 most important factors. Shot placement, shot placement & shot placement! Everything else is widow dressing.

[HCM]

Not a bad thought, but 1911s make the discussion worth having, as they do run better in .45. I think the general consensus is that you’re not giving up much to .45 with 9’s terminal performance, but the 9 camp has gotten so fervid that they’d like us to believe we’re giving up a lot to 9 with .45’s “shootability,” which I think is a little thin because I personally shoot .45 LWCs a little better than I shoot G17s, my other favorite pistol.

For me, .45’s relevance is that it enables me to use my preferred platform — the one I shoot best and carry most — at its peak embodiment. I guess there are some other platforms out there that are better in .45 — I never went down the HK45C rabbit hole but I bet I could.

I also think .45 reloads way better— it’s a sidebar but an important one to me. The components are easier to handle, the brass lasts longer and takes less inspection, and the end product is more accurate and more fun to shoot. I haven’t found a t-shirt that expresses my abiding love for the H&G68 but I am a guy that would wear that shirt.

Any straight wall case is going to be easier to reload for.

For service use no one is going to be using bunny fart 200 grain LSWC reloads. They’re cool for fun but no institutional user of .45 pistols is going to be using them.

I have multiple 1911s (and 3 non 1911s) in .45 but for institutional use it’s disadvantages outweigh it’s advantages. That was true even before the current bullet tech, if it weren’t .40 wouldn’t exist. Though sone 40 guns and loads can be even more unpleasant to shoot and inefficient than .45.

For myself I’ve planned to commission a “real” custom 1911 5 years out from retirement and I’m leaning heavily towards a 38 super with a fitted 9mm barrel vs .45. We just did tactical refresher training including using the ram on a breaching door - given the way my hands and wrists feel two days later vs the past, I’m thinking an RDS equipped 38 Super/9mm is going to be a much more practical “old man gun” than a .45.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I found that my 9mm Glocks and 45 ACP 1911 much more pleasant than my 40 SW Glock, ditched it. Just saying. I said this before but carrying the 1911 is doable but doesn't give me more than the Glocks. That being said, it's not totally obsolete.