Week 426: Stop Shooting

[backtrail540]

Target - TA Mini Dap
Gun P30sk with LTT dot milled slide in an enigma.
Concealed under a hoodie.

Hits before beep - 4
Hits after beep - 0

Vp9a1 F with dot
Concealed under hoodie

Hits before beep - 4
Hits after beep - 0

It was super windy today so i just ran steel. It was a very high % target at 7 yards. It was windy enough that i had constant wind noise in my ears and thought i may struggle to hear the timer. I had it clipped to my neckline as a countermeasure. Despite this, i think i was overly focused on catching the beep and shot on auto pilot. I'm not sure it captured the essence of the drill. But there it is.

[fastbolt]

I'd have to give it some though related to non-LE training conditions. It's obviously a good thing to be able to deliberately stop pressing a trigger when the shooter recognizes that continued use of deadly force is no longer appropriate, reasonable and lawful. In that same vein of thought, it's also just as important to recognize when a trigger press ought not happen in the first place, even (especially?) when someone is expecting the signal/cue to shoot, is a bit (or a lot) stressed not knowing what's about to happen, the hormonal fear response ramps up, etc.

One of the things that can happen in LE training is when someone doesn't see what there is to see, and they don't shoot when they ought to, which can mean they fail the scenario because they're 'killed'. This can also happen if someone isn't prepared for conditions of lighting at the time the training/quals are happening.

In LE training/quals we were able to use visual cues (no-shoot/full-size picture targets which provided the cop with ample reason why a shot ought not be fired, if they were paying attention), or some other visual cue with expected 'targets' suddenly presenting (turning, or being revealed by shooter movement, etc) and identifying themselves as non-shoot situations. Even the old FATS training had 'branching' options for non-shoot situations.

Audible signals for LE qualifying that they must stop shooting have been as simple as (following prior directions) listening for a second buzzer or another whistle to mean shooting must stop. Of course, that's presuming audible signals can be heard (over gun fire, etc), and the shooters are paying attention. And then the shooters being reminded that such signals won't happen in the real world, and they must rely on the totality of, combined with good judgment.

Hey, if it was easy, anyone and everyone would do it.

[psalms144.1]

This drill was too easy for me. While I was having lidocaine and steroids injected into my wrist yesterday, I asked the doc if I could hit the range this week (weather is glorious!). Her response of "NO!" came before I could even get my finger off the timer "Start" button. So, -2.x seconds for me...

Seriously, this looks like a great drill. Once I'm over the hump with this strong hand injury (and rehabbing my frozen support shoulder), I look forward to getting through a bunch of these.

[RJ]

Looks very interesting.

My Lizard Brain has never contemplated the concept of ‘stopping’ shooting but it makes sense. I’ll look for an opportunity to do this soon.

Would there be some mileage to be gained doing this dry?

[Clusterfrack]

Looks very interesting.

My Lizard Brain has never contemplated the concept of ‘stopping’ shooting but it makes sense. I’ll look for an opportunity to do this soon.

Would there be some mileage to be gained doing this dry?

Maybe. Dryfire can be a better way to practice some things because there's no blast or recoil to distract. For Stop Shooting, I'd want that distraction. One of my most memorable practice sessions was with my combatives mentor. We set up a motorized random threat/non-thread target, and after working that for a while he stood at my side and punched me hard in the solar plexus before each presentation*. That added stress and distraction for sure


*don't try this at home

[willie]

Have you tried shooting at a balloon tied to a kid's remote control car? The car runs behind a railroad crosstie. The shooter sees only the balloon. This is more fun than the old running man target from yesteryear. As much as you shoot, I bet you can hit cans thrown in the air and milk jugs out to 150 yards.

[Clusterfrack]

Have you tried shooting at a balloon tied to a kid's remote control car? The car runs behind a railroad crosstie. The shooter sees only the balloon. This is more fun than the old running man target from yesteryear. As much as you shoot, I bet you can hit cans thrown in the air and milk jugs out to 150 yards.

LOL! No. We've had some good movers at various matches though.

[ViniVidivici]

So @fastbolt, you gonna shoot this drill or what?

G19-4, irons. Concealed, AIWB.

Good discussion here, and based on that, here's what we did:

I rigged a target so that it could rotate. Simple run of fishing line, you pull, target turns. So I'm at 7 yards, the HH6 is a yard behind me, with instructions to yank that line, randomly, to turn the target, at some point once I start shooting. She's also keeping track of any shots after the target turns.

That turning away is my cue to stop. You can see a couple sideways hits on it, & there's one on the back, from me "failing to stop".

My splits were in the .25-.35 range.

2" circle on head, 5" circle in chest.

8 strings, I'll list them as string#, shots after turn, total shots, and head (H) or chest (C)

1. -2. (3) C
2. -1. (5) C
3. -1. (6) H
4. -0. (4) H
5. -1. (7) C
6. -1. (4) H
7. -1. (5) C
8. -0. (3) H




After this, I did a couple iterations using the timer as Mr. White stated, with similar results. 1 string was 1 shot over, 4 shots fired, next was 0 shots over, 5 shots.

Very eye-opening. It's like, even as I'm seeing the target turn away, I'm already "engaged", executing the press, and it's hard to hit the brake.

That first string, she just yanked that line soon as I started blasting, caught me off guard! 2 out of 3 shots fired after assailant had turned.

It was easier to stop when going for the smaller target, as I was shooting a little slower, for obvious reasons (harder to hit).

This REALLY brings home what one LEO poster talked about in another thread, about how their agency only advocates shooting as fast as assessment is possible (no 2 second Bill Drills!).

That is arguably a very sensible approach to things, as Mr. Massad Ayoob has documented accounts of folks getting into trouble for landing shots on the back of a perpetrator, and an expert has to come in and explain this, what we're seeing right here.

[fastbolt]

...
This REALLY brings home what one LEO poster talked about in another thread, about how their agency only advocates shooting as fast as assessment is possible (no 2 second Bill Drills!).

That is arguably a very sensible approach to things, as Mr. Massad Ayoob has documented accounts of folks getting into trouble for landing shots on the back of a perpetrator, and an expert has to come in and explain this, what we're seeing right here.

Nice target. You're RH?

While there's been some scientific studies done on why someone (a cop) might shoot as a suspect is turning away from them, nobody wants to be in the situation of having to explain to jurors why they didn't stop shooting at a point determined (usually afterward, with plenty of review, etc) to be when deadly force was no longer appropriate, reasonably necessary, etc. Being able to see - recognize and act upon - what there is to see is something that can be discussed in training and use-of-deadly-force classes endlessly, but when the real world happens things can get ... difficult. Having to deal with the potential array of sensory deficit conditions, as well as reasonable fear, can rob attention and focus.

Yes, there's a difference between functioning the trigger press knowing you have an unknown finite length of moments to maximize scored hits on a range target - and that nobody is shooting back at you - with the only penalty being dropped points ... versus trying to stop someone from seriously injuring or killing you, while also trying to be aware whether your intended shots may recklessly endanger anyone other than the guy trying to shoot you.

Yes, each bullet will likely be examined and studied in review, and there may be one or more civil liability attorneys vying to chase after those bullets (old joke, but with some basis). How fast might any shot, and any subsequent shots, have to be fired? Damned if I can predict. When I was still working I often set up some drills where I had to react to a random buzzer and draw/fire at different distances, but usually within 1-7yds (because our contacts with people in our plainclothes activities were usually close and fast). The shot numbers varied, but they typically involved movement while shooting (1 handed and then going to 2 handed for longer drills). While my average split times (when I checked, meaning not always) were running in the low/mid teens, the speed wasn't the point. They all had to be solid hits. I wasn't the fastest among our training staff when it came to that, either.

I suspect I'm a little slower 'off the mark' reaction-wise in my 70's than I was in my mid-50's, or maybe I'm feeling a bit more relaxed in my retirement, but once the draw and then the trigger press is underway, it doesn't feel different. The last couple of quals I did for LEOSA and retirement renewal suddenly made me feel like I'd just been teaching and running demo drills yesterday. Of course, I didn't try to burn rounds for several hours, like I often used to do in my role as one of the instructors. Standing on sand or concrete for that many hours quickly takes a toll sooner than it used to. Takes longer to recover, too.

[RJ]

Maybe. Dryfire can be a better way to practice some things because there's no blast or recoil to distract. For Stop Shooting, I'd want that distraction. One of my most memorable practice sessions was with my combatives mentor. We set up a motorized random threat/non-thread target, and after working that for a while he stood at my side and punched me hard in the solar plexus before each presentation*. That added stress and distraction for sure


*don't try this at home

Gotcha. Yeah I don't need that much of a distraction.

Food for thought.