Group suggesting reintroduction of Jaguars into SouthWest US

[Joe S]

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireSt...hwest-77722233

Scientists and experts with the Wildlife Conservation Society, the Center for Landscape Conservation, Defenders of Wildlife, the Center for Biological Diversity and other organizations are pointing to more than 31,800 square miles (82,400 square kilometers) of suitable habitat in the mountains of central Arizona and New Mexico that could potentially support anywhere from 90 to 150 jaguars.

They contend that reintroducing the cats is essential to species conservation and restoration of the region's ecosystem.

[Totem Polar]

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireSt...hwest-77722233

Introduce them along the border.

[Cheap Shot]

Very cool!

[Duelist]

Um, what?!

They never left. There are just as many jaguars here in the mountains of southern Arizona as want to be here. We had a dominant male for ~10 years that spent most of his time here and only travelled south for mating season. He would kill and consume adult bears, deer, javelina, and pretty much anything he wanted, and didn’t let other jaguars come around. Last time I checked the discussions and websites about border jaguars, there were 4 or 5 hanging around in the Huachucas, Santa Ritas, Dragoons, and so forth. Hunting or shooting them is super bad plus illegal, so unless those folks are talking about grabbing some adult cats from somewhere and setting them loose here (how are they going to make them stay vs run back home?), what more do they want to do to “reintroduce” a species that’s already here?!

[RevolverRob]

'Rewilding' is a fairly common concept in conservation biology. Conceptually, the ecosystem balance is very important, realistically, ecosystems are sufficiently disturbed today that attempting to rewild them may not achieve the balance sought, if the variables in the system aren't as clearly understood as thought.

I'm not sure what balance is trying to be achieved here with the proposed reintroduction of jaguars. I would imagine mountain lions have healthy populations in these areas and are sufficient to take all the large prey in the area.

Are there substantial populations of bighorn sheep, bison, or elk in these areas? If so it makes sense (like the reintroduction of wolves and grizzlies into Yellowstone). But if not, then I can't imagine this would end as well as folks think.

I guess my long and short - whenever folks talk of reintroducing macro-predators to areas, my general thought it, "Ah, they're working to get press and drive donations."

Probably more benefit to boosting gopher tortoise populations in these areas than introducing jaguars.

[Borderland]

I bet the ranchers won't be too thrilled about this. But then the fed will probably pay them for the predation. What's the price of beef on the hook these days, $5/lb ?

I can think of worse things the fed could spend money on. Might thin the herds of starving deer also. I remember ranchers saying there were Jaguars in AZ north of the border back in the 60's.

[revchuck38]

Any E-types included?

[Duelist]

I bet the ranchers won't be too thrilled about this. But then the fed will probably pay them for the predation. What's the price of beef on the hook these days, $5/lb ?

I can think of worse things the fed could spend money on. Might thin the herds of starving deer also. I remember ranchers saying there were Jaguars in AZ north of the border back in the 60's.

What herds of starving deer?!

As @RevolverRob said, we have very healthy numbers of lions already, in addition to human hunters, so the deer herds aren’t eating themselves out of house and home and don’t need more thinning.

[RevolverRob]

Um, what?!

They never left. There are just as many jaguars here in the mountains of southern Arizona as want to be here. We had a dominant male for ~10 years that spent most of his time here and only travelled south for mating season. He would kill and consume adult bears, deer, javelina, and pretty much anything he wanted, and didn’t let other jaguars come around. Last time I checked the discussions and websites about border jaguars, there were 4 or 5 hanging around in the Huachucas, Santa Ritas, Dragoons, and so forth. Hunting or shooting them is super bad plus illegal, so unless those folks are talking about grabbing some adult cats from somewhere and setting them loose here (how are they going to make them stay vs run back home?), what more do they want to do to “reintroduce” a species that’s already here?!

There is a pretty bad tendency among some conservationists and conservation groups to want to 'return' to some arbitrary point in the past. It's very unrealistic and not well grounded in strong science.

I say this as someone with a bunch of ecologist colleagues. Some of whom I've had to call out for their lack of quantitative data to support rather ridiculous positions.

These days as evolutionary ecology as a field has really matured a better grounding in understanding how ecosystems change, respond, and evolve in the face of a changing environment is allowing much better management and better thinking to occur. Rewilding as a set of hypotheses was really popular 25-years ago, for the most part it is has given way to much more intelligent and nuanced views, studies, and data collection.

Again, basically these ideas are floated to generate $$$$.

[RevolverRob]

What herds of starving deer?!

As @RevolverRob said, we have very healthy numbers of lions already, in addition to human hunters, so the deer herds aren’t eating themselves out of house and home and don’t need more thinning.

One jaguar would probably help the deer overcrowding where @Borderland lives.

It would certainly help in east and central Texas, where even long deer seasons cannot control the white-tail populations.

Imagine what kind of field day a bunch of jaguars would have in the tall pine forests of the eastern US chomping down on all those feral hogs?

I can think of a lot of other places where the introduction of macro-predators makes more sense than Arizona, to be brutally honest. But none of them have the charismatic beauty and draw. I mean, introducing jaguars in Louisiana and Alabama makes far more sense, but doesn't draw the press or donations to do it as it would in Arizona.

Never mind that we have substantial paleontological evidence to support that there were a number of large(r) cat species in the American southeast, including extinct cheetahs and cave lions. Today, with an overabundance of non-native prey, it makes complete sense that we throw in some fresh predators to get their primal on.

Personally, I can't think of anything cooler than watching some introduced cheetahs run down some feral piglets and maybe a sow and munch down on them at the end of a farmer's field in Alabama. Come the fuck on, that'd be AWESOME.