Current state of the 1911 industry?

[HCM]

In the early days of 1911 ‘smithing nearly everyone bought a complete milspec gun and started re-shaping and throwing away parts. Kimber, when they first came on the scene and didn’t suck, changed everything because you bought the gun pre-shaped and with the parts you’d want. They essentially manufactured guns already pimped, which saved the buyer the cost of paying someone to shape and the double cost of buying almost every single part twice (once in the gun, and once for the go-fast parts). Why Kimber had to go and screw it all up, I’ll never understand.

Now everyone is paying $3-5k for Wilson’s and other high-end production guns that basically just do what Kimber did (have the slides and frames manufactured to their specs, and install the go-fast parts from the beginning). Why do they cost 3-5- what a new a kimber didn20 years ago? Inflation, “hand-fitting” and marketing. Even when they do make a $2500 1911 they bugger it up with daft aesthetics.

Once you do get into the “hand fitting” of things, your costs go up as well. Skilled labor that wants to work in guns isn’t exactly cheap as I bet it once was. Plus we’ve wrapped this whole thing in some mythos, and mythos costs money.

Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

The early Kimbers were neither the mythical "Wilson CQB at a bargain price" many make them out to be nor were they the complete balls of suck and fail they devolved into later.

I don't know how old M2 is but RobS should be old enough to remember that before Kimber there was no such thing as a Springfield Loaded or similar on the market. A few of the Colts could be had with higher profile sights like those seen on the 1991 series guns, Springfield had a similar model called the defender with higher sights and an extended thumb safety. That's it. The early Kimbers were decent guns equal to an SAI Loaded, which, if I recall correctly was created specifically to compete with Kimber. If you wanted a beavertail, extended safety, useable sights etc back then you either had to add them aftermarket or buy a higher grade gun like a Wilson or something from the Colt or Springfield Custom shop.

IME, the Kimber 5" series 70 style guns, such as the Warriors are > the other Kimbers and will need the least tweeking.

[theJanitor]

Kimbers were good in the mid-90's. They had nicer frames and slides than Springfield, IMO, and their barrels shot well. Some people lament the fact that guys like Chuck Rogers or Larry Vickers would build full customs on them, but it's proof the frames/slides were of quality. When I had Drake Oldham build me a pistol off a Kimber, I had him surface grind the logo off

Wilson came out with their 1996A2 model at the same time, after transitioning from CMC (maybe wilsoncombatrep can set me straight here), so the entire industry was in movement.

eta: rob_s had a 1* built off a Springer, IIRC. Mine is built on a colt, but that makes us old enough, lol

[rob_s]

I don't know how old M2 is but RobS should be old enough to remember that before Kimber there was no such thing as a Springfield Loaded or similar on the market. A few of the Colts could be had with higher profile sights like those seen on the 1991 series guns, Springfield had a similar model called the defender with higher sights and an extended thumb safety. That's it. The early Kimbers were decent guns equal to an SAI Loaded, which, if I recall correctly was created specifically to compete with Kimber. If you wanted a beavertail, extended safety, useable sights etc back then you either had to add them aftermarket or buy a higher grade gun like a Wilson or something from the Colt or Springfield Custom shop.

That's more or less my recollections as well.

My initial exposure to Kimber would have been sometime around 1995 I think. I seem to recall being aware of the change from "Kimber in Oregon" to "Kimber in Yonkers" (and maybe some transition therein where they were called "Kimber of Oregon" while not actually being, you know, IN Oregon? But maybe that's urban myth or brain fade...). I think there were maybe two models available when I discovered them at a local gunshop through a friend. it was ridiculous... I think they were $600?

The Springfield "loaded" was almost certainly a reaction IIRC. But again, brain fade.

What I do recall about the early Kimbers is what I posted before. Their economic/manufacturing "genius" was buying the frames and slides already roughed in for the parts they planned to install (beavertails, sights, etc.) and then installing those parts right out of the gate, vs what everyone else was doing was hacking away at those frames and slides after the fact and throwing away the stock parts. I do recollect that they were also "better" than a lot of what was on the market at the time, and I don't recall them as having reliability or other issues, but again, brain fade.

in terms of comparing them to Wilson or whatever, I'm sure the Wilsons of the day had more refinement, more TLC, etc. Maybe were even more accurate and prettier. But when the goal is a relilable 1911 that doesn't cut you to ribbons or otherwise shred your hands, my experience was that the Kimbers of that era couldn't have gotten any better.

[rob_s]

eta: rob_s had a 1* built off a Springer, IIRC.

one of maybe two guns I've ever sold (and I have sold a lot) that I actually regret. In fact, maybe the only one...

I'd love to track it down...

[45dotACP]

My brother has an older Kimber. As far as 1911s go, it is adequate. It's not world beating. The barrel fit is decent, the gun is reliable. It is not as accurate as the G21 he owns. It's nothing special compared to a modern, entry level 1911 with no firing pin safety.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[theJanitor]

one of maybe two guns I've ever sold (and I have sold a lot) that I actually regret. In fact, maybe the only one...

I'd love to track it down...

It took ten years, but I got my 1* Elite back

[farscott]

Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

When Kimber introduced the Custom Classic, the execution was not the big deal. The big deal was getting a 1911 with a beavertail, a decent thumb safety, front cocking serrations, decent sights, and a dehorn did not require buying a new or used 1911 and then buying a ton of parts and paying someone to make a usable gun. The idea that an OEM could offer a 1911 that people could actually use as bought was novel. Kimber may not be Chuck Rogers or Bob Rodgers, but Kimber definitely made a difference in how the 1911 was made.

[rob_s]

Oh my god someone is still crying about MIM!

LMAO!

somebody get that guy a woobie!

(just make sure it's cast/milled/machined/knitted...!)

[WilsonCombatRep]

Jerico Precision (Jerry and Rich's Company) made beautiful gun parts.

Jerico became the prime vendor for Kimber when Kimber launched the Classic Custom in 1995 (The prototypes shown at the 1995 SHOT show were Caspian slides and frames)

Jerico also built parts for :
Nowlin
Wilson
CMC
Lone Star (STI)
Krebs

and others too numerous to remember. Kimber took a high-quality slide, frame, and barrel and surrounded it with mostly plastic and metal injection molded parts.
As they grew the business, they kept pushing the envelope to cut costs on the parts. By the time the Series 2 guns emerged, the quality of the small parts really suffered IMO.
A series 1 Kimber is an EXCELLENT budget 1911. The barrels shoot very, very well. You are hampered by some goofy sight cuts and other things designed to streamline assembly but overall, the base parts were really good.


When Kimber became a success they bought Jerico's shop in Yonkers, NY around 1996. At that point, custom 1911 companies had to find new vendors or start making frames and slides since the writing was on the wall that Kimber had no desire to sell parts to "competitors". Wilson started down the path to build slides and frames almost 20 years ago and never looked back. We started with vendors and for over a decade build everything in-house. To maintain quality, it's the only way.

[vcdgrips]

I own a Series 1 Kimber, SN 8xxx, Yonkers rollmark. It has been an excellent pistol. Made it thru a 1000+ round Gunsite class in 06/07 with nary a bobble except for the double charged round I reloaded. It was none the worst for the wear as per the Gunsite Smithy.

It is "The Truth." Far more accurate at 25+ than I will ever be.


I do not need another 1911 in my life right now. Yet EVERY TIME, I go into a store where guns are sold, I check the case for ANY Series 1 Kimber gun. I have been lucky once and bought it on the spot. A stainless Series 1, SN 32XXX, Yonkers rollmark. Sold it to a SWAT cop who would not take no for an answer and offered 100 more than I paid for it.