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Thread: RevolverRob's I hate TORX Rant

  1. #11
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  2. #12
    Torx, Phillips, Allen head do NOT belong on guns. Good old flat screws as God intended. The others belong on cars and certain other machinery.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    I hate long-distance dirt bikes that are built with Torx or even worse, E-star heads. Because if I end up halfway down Baja and some galoot has managed to steal my tools, I will probably be able to find 6- or 12-point sockets a lot easier. If I ever get that KTM/Husky, I will spend a bunch of extra money with ARP, McMaster-Carr, and/or Fastenal.

    But Torx are actually better than internal hex. Especially in smaller sizes, the hex form works through trigonometry in a way that causes stuff to round off and strip a heck of a lot faster than a Torx.

    What really sucks is crappy hardware. Unfortunately, most firearms and firearm accessories are not specified by fastener nerds, so they get screwed together with whatever cheese screws can be had 10,000 at a time for the cheepest price. Case in point, the screws Beretta supplies on the 1301 to hold the stock rail on are absolute garbage (see my post in the 1301 thread about upgrading them with Torx screws sold for holding cutting inserts in tool heads). Properly headed fasteners of appropriate hardness and dimensional control, turned with quality tools, work well. Garbage fasteners and/or crappy tools make your life suck in any size, any configuration.
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  4. #14
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I run Wera or Wiha torx bits, I still strip them and/or ruin bits at a surprising rate. When it comes to building a deck the torx deck screws are about the same compared to phillips in terms of stripping for me. If you use an impact driver with the torx screws though, it helps a ton. Impact only seems to make it worse on phillips.

    I wonder if part of the problem as well is the tendency of manufacturers to use far too much and/or the wrong thread locker on their small screws when assembling.

    I think the case today is where the hardware is bought in bulk and is of moderate (at best) quality. Once I get everything disassembled, I'll measure the hardware and order appropriately sized and hardened fasteners in a slot style.

    Which brings me to a new point - I dunno how some engineers aren't OCD about these things. It really irritates me that there are two different types and three sizes of fasteners on my Rattler. Look y'all, you can order almost any damn combination of fastener where the bit is smaller than the shaft diameter. If you use a 5/64" hex key for the barrel screws, you can spec the same thing for the grip and brace screws. Instead I have 7/32nds, 5/16 allens and T10 torx. Disgusting.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I run Wera or Wiha torx bits, I still strip them and/or ruin bits at a surprising rate. When it comes to building a deck the torx deck screws are about the same compared to phillips in terms of stripping for me. If you use an impact driver with the torx screws though, it helps a ton. Impact only seems to make it worse on phillips.

    I wonder if part of the problem as well is the tendency of manufacturers to use far too much and/or the wrong thread locker on their small screws when assembling.

    I think the case today is where the hardware is bought in bulk and is of moderate (at best) quality. Once I get everything disassembled, I'll measure the hardware and order appropriately sized and hardened fasteners in a slot style.

    Which brings me to a new point - I dunno how some engineers aren't OCD about these things. It really irritates me that there are two different types and three sizes of fasteners on my Rattler. Look y'all, you can order almost any damn combination of fastener where the bit is smaller than the shaft diameter. If you use a 5/64" hex key for the barrel screws, you can spec the same thing for the grip and brace screws. Instead I have 7/32nds, 5/16 allens and T10 torx. Disgusting.
    Two points:

    1. Quality fasteners are made to standards, which specify combinations of head, tool cavity, and thread diameter. For example, DIN 912 is the essentially universal standard for metric socket head cap screws.
    https://www.fasteners.eu/standards/DIN/912/

    If you're an engineer specing out metric socket head cap screws, they are going to comply with the standard. Getting anything different in quality is going to be 20:1 cost ratio if not more, and you may not even be able to find a fastener house that will or even can build off-spec stuff for you using proper methods.

    If you insist on using the same tool size for all the different screws, you're going to compromise with some screws being bigger/heavier/uglier than they need to be, or some being possibly marginally too small, or some of both.

    You might have noticed I am kind of OCD on this stuff, and an engineer. I'd waaaay rather have a quality, standard fastener spec'ed than something custom. Custom fasteners far too often are mega-fail.

    Case study A: The aforementioned rail screws from Beretta. I was present when a buddy was trying to zero his 1301 with slugs and the heads popped off the fasteners, because they are made with other than standard manufacturing methods.

    Case study B: The only wart on a Howa bolt-action rifle is the bolt stop screw. It is a custom-designed fastener, and it is utter crap. It has a stress riser where the head transitions to the shank, rather than a nice radius, and then, because it's turned on a lathe, rather than forged and rolled, there are circular tool marks that put "crack here" rings all around the stress riser. It can be unkittened by making a shoulder bushing sized just right for a SHCS that's made from 190ksi material with a forged head, radius underhead, and rolled threads.

    2. Related to that, a lot of it comes down to what can be ordered. Most part or system manufacturers don't do enough volume on any given fastener to be direct with a standard fastener manufacturer. When you need only up to a few tens of thousands a year (or a lot less) of four different part numbers per year, you go through a fastener distributor, so you can get as many of your fasteners as possible from one source. This gives you a better relationship and a better position from which to negotiate your price. Also, fewer accounts to keep track of. It may totally be the case that, although the fastener you want theoretically exists based on the standard document, it's not actually manufactured. Or you might be able to get the length, thread pitch and metallurgy you need, but not the head form. Etc.
    Last edited by OlongJohnson; 05-13-2021 at 09:01 PM.
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  6. #16
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    In my experience Torx head screws work significantly better in manufacturing when using torque/angle control assembly drivers.

    They are much less likely to skip or jump throwing the gun into error.

    When attempting to test a joint to failure a square bit has always worked the best for me assuming correctly manufactured screws.

  7. #17
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    I use Torx literally every day at work, in a number of applications but primarily in indexable cutting heads. If they weren't superior the manufacturers of these tools would be using something else.

  8. #18
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    .050 Allen screws are the Devil's own joke... Talk about a stripped head just waiting to happen.

  9. #19
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I am increasingly convinced that star drive/double square/torx head fasteners are a communist plot designed to infuriate me and break my spirit.
    The Universe is reminding you that Dr. Rob is not all that and a bag of chips.
    If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
    I usually touch a soldering iron to the head of the torx screw before I remove it for the first time to break any loctite on them. But yeah torx sucks
    That’s a good tip re: soldering iron.

    Re: Torx suck, it seems to be more of a scale thing. I’m doing some outdoor construction projects and it’s mostly a mix of square and torx, and all goes well. On the rare occasion I grab a Phillips to tack something in place I inevitably regret it. And don’t even start on slotted for construction.
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