Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Blackhawk Sentry 12 : Opinions on this?

  1. #1

    Blackhawk Sentry 12 : Opinions on this?

    So I ran into some of these at the LGS...

    https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/bla...e-fed-shotgun/

    Mislabeled as 20 gauge( I suppose at least, I've found no reference to anything but 12 gauge), and priced at $699. I knew I had recalled seeing something about them a while back, but I could not find any references to them online except for that one blog review.
    Handling one in person, it seemed much less awkward and better handling than my 870, at least for me, who is more familiar with ARs , which seems to be the point of the layout.
    I didn't end up buying one, because of both thinking it was 20 gauge, and not knowing anything else about it beyond my impressions and recalling it had some connection to Blackhawk.
    Looking on the Iron Horse Firearms site, it shows options for extra 5 and 8 round magazines at 19.99 and 24.99. And the only other product of note they produce is a thumb trigger AR... so that's a thing I guess.

    Knowing there are some real shotgunning experts on here, what is the impression of this thing? Viable option(in theory), or gimmick?

  2. #2
    Correction, it is Blackwater , not Blackhawk that it is branded by. I kept confusing the two.

  3. #3
    Just Sayin'
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    ABQ, NM
    I'm not a shotgunning expert by any means.

    Aside from the VEPR-12 and Saiga-12 variants being used by Russian LE and Mil in niche roles, I haven't seen any detachable mag shotgun adopted in any kind of serious role by serious organizations.

    Given how the Benelli's and Mossberg 590A1's and Remington 870P's of the world keep getting used over and over again to good effect, despite mag fed 12 gauge shotguns like the USAS-12 existing since the 1970's, I can't help but feel like there's a really, really good reason for that.

    Speaking as an NCO, sticking the name 'Blackwater' on anything is such obvious Timmie Tryhard LARP bait that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Absolutely no LE org or Military unit would want anything to do with that name.
    Don't beg the question when the answer is war

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    I'm not a shotgunning expert by any means.

    Aside from the VEPR-12 and Saiga-12 variants being used by Russian LE and Mil in niche roles, I haven't seen any detachable mag shotgun adopted in any kind of serious role by serious organizations.

    Given how the Benelli's and Mossberg 590A1's and Remington 870P's of the world keep getting used over and over again to good effect, despite mag fed 12 gauge shotguns like the USAS-12 existing since the 1970's, I can't help but feel like there's a really, really good reason for that.

    Speaking as an NCO, sticking the name 'Blackwater' on anything is such obvious Timmie Tryhard LARP bait that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Absolutely no LE org or Military unit would want anything to do with that name.
    I think the lack of mil adoption probably has something to do with shotguns being a very niche weapon in a mil context.
    And LE doesn't seem interested in new general issue gauges, and have retained them largely as less-lethal options.
    All the modern development in mag fed shotguns seems to be largely a civilian effort initially focused on 3-gun competition, that has filtered out to the general public.
    The USAS12 not being used despite being around might have less to due with it being mag fed, than it being a giant brick that is the size and weight of some LMGs but with the range of a handgun. Same with the AA12. There doesn't seem to be justifiable use for full-auto 12 pound shotguns in either LE or Mil usage.
    My question wasn't about whether it made sense for LE or Mil organizations, as like you said they seem just fine with legacy designs for their limited scope of use, but whether it made sense for the civilian user for self defense compared to those legacy designs, if it offered any advantages over those known quantities.
    And the branding association with Blackwater is reason to give pause, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the firearm itself is a good design, or manufacturing quality of it.
    There has been a lot of discussion on this board about the lack of quality in manufacturing of recent Remington and Mossberg pump-guns, so just because a design has been in use by serious organizations for decades, doesn't necessarily mean that current production examples available can be counted on to perform up to that standard.
    And it being what on the outside looks like a new ground up design with "modern" ergos and not just a box mag slapped on a legacy receiver makes me curious about it.

  5. #5
    I remember reading concerns about plastic-hulled shotshells deforming when stored under spring pressure in box magazines. There’s also the issue of reliably feeding a rimmed “cartridge” from a box magazine. Shotshells tend to have looser dimensional controls than metallic cartridges. All are things that would make me wary, but I’d be happy to be proved wrong.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    I remember reading concerns about plastic-hulled shotshells deforming when stored under spring pressure in box magazines. There’s also the issue of reliably feeding a rimmed “cartridge” from a box magazine. Shotshells tend to have looser dimensional controls than metallic cartridges. All are things that would make me wary, but I’d be happy to be proved wrong.
    Yeah I remember someone having Hornady( I think) make them a custom set of dies for all brass shotshells specifically to limit the deformation problem for his competition gun.
    But then again I've had feeding issues and deformation problems with cheap bulk shells in my 870 too, so it might just be choosing your tradeoff. Shotshells were designed for single shot or double barrel breechloaders, so any repeating mechanism is already having to work around that.

  7. #7
    Just Sayin'
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    ABQ, NM
    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    I think the lack of mil adoption probably has something to do with shotguns being a very niche weapon in a mil context.
    And LE doesn't seem interested in new general issue gauges, and have retained them largely as less-lethal options.
    All the modern development in mag fed shotguns seems to be largely a civilian effort initially focused on 3-gun competition, that has filtered out to the general public.
    The USAS12 not being used despite being around might have less to due with it being mag fed, than it being a giant brick that is the size and weight of some LMGs but with the range of a handgun. Same with the AA12. There doesn't seem to be justifiable use for full-auto 12 pound shotguns in either LE or Mil usage.
    My question wasn't about whether it made sense for LE or Mil organizations, as like you said they seem just fine with legacy designs for their limited scope of use, but whether it made sense for the civilian user for self defense compared to those legacy designs, if it offered any advantages over those known quantities.
    And the branding association with Blackwater is reason to give pause, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether the firearm itself is a good design, or manufacturing quality of it.
    There has been a lot of discussion on this board about the lack of quality in manufacturing of recent Remington and Mossberg pump-guns, so just because a design has been in use by serious organizations for decades, doesn't necessarily mean that current production examples available can be counted on to perform up to that standard.
    And it being what on the outside looks like a new ground up design with "modern" ergos and not just a box mag slapped on a legacy receiver makes me curious about it.
    There are still plenty of Mossbergs to be found in Army arms rooms. They're still fantastic for breaching and other MOUT stuff and they're still issued to meat-eaters in that line of work as well as guys/gals controlling EPW's and other detainees.

    For all 'shotgun' purposes the Mossbergs work very, very well. And they're easily maintained and supported by a large aftermarket, just like the 870P's and Benellis. Aside from less-lethal and breaching use, the role of a shotgun for mil or LE is the same as it is for a civilian - it is the undisputed king of true one-shot stops in close quarters.

    So before deviating from older but well-known designs with large established training support, experience, and parts/aftermarket support - I'd ask what's the obvious benefit over those older designs that makes it worth the additional cost and the deviation from good support.

    In the case of mag fed pump shotguns, the only immediate benefit I've seen is the ease of clearing the weapon, and ostensibly faster full reloads.
    Given the typical 7+1 or 8+1 capacity of most 'traditional' pump shotguns used in these roles, the faster reload is unlikely to be of immediate benefit. Fast clearing without having to pump all of the ammo out of the weapon seems to be the biggest benefit of a detachable mag.
    But it introduces the handling issues of the magazine, the reduced flexibility from not being able to single-load a slug or LL round as needed, and complicates support as suddenly the weapon needs bulky and generally low capacity spare magazines, and likely compromises overall reliability for all the reasons already described.
    That all adds up quickly to a conclusion where a quality AR full of quality duty ammo would probably be a better choice, especially if you're expecting a protracted, multiple reload sort of engagement.

    I'd carefully consider what you need your shotgun to do, and choose accordingly. If you just want a fun range blaster and something weird to look at, go for it! Not all guns have to be the next latest greatest thing for a defensive or 'duty' sort of purpose. I'll admit, I love 'space guns' and a lot of the new cheap imported mag-fed shotguns look straight out of a Hollywood movie and I love the way they look. But simply liking a new weird novelty design shouldn't lead you to forcing it into roles best suited for vetted, well-known options.
    Don't beg the question when the answer is war

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    There are still plenty of Mossbergs to be found in Army arms rooms. They're still fantastic for breaching and other MOUT stuff and they're still issued to meat-eaters in that line of work as well as guys/gals controlling EPW's and other detainees.

    For all 'shotgun' purposes the Mossbergs work very, very well. And they're easily maintained and supported by a large aftermarket, just like the 870P's and Benellis. Aside from less-lethal and breaching use, the role of a shotgun for mil or LE is the same as it is for a civilian - it is the undisputed king of true one-shot stops in close quarters.

    So before deviating from older but well-known designs with large established training support, experience, and parts/aftermarket support - I'd ask what's the obvious benefit over those older designs that makes it worth the additional cost and the deviation from good support.

    In the case of mag fed pump shotguns, the only immediate benefit I've seen is the ease of clearing the weapon, and ostensibly faster full reloads.
    Given the typical 7+1 or 8+1 capacity of most 'traditional' pump shotguns used in these roles, the faster reload is unlikely to be of immediate benefit. Fast clearing without having to pump all of the ammo out of the weapon seems to be the biggest benefit of a detachable mag.
    But it introduces the handling issues of the magazine, the reduced flexibility from not being able to single-load a slug or LL round as needed, and complicates support as suddenly the weapon needs bulky and generally low capacity spare magazines, and likely compromises overall reliability for all the reasons already described.
    That all adds up quickly to a conclusion where a quality AR full of quality duty ammo would probably be a better choice, especially if you're expecting a protracted, multiple reload sort of engagement.

    I'd carefully consider what you need your shotgun to do, and choose accordingly. If you just want a fun range blaster and something weird to look at, go for it! Not all guns have to be the next latest greatest thing for a defensive or 'duty' sort of purpose. I'll admit, I love 'space guns' and a lot of the new cheap imported mag-fed shotguns look straight out of a Hollywood movie and I love the way they look. But simply liking a new weird novelty design shouldn't lead you to forcing it into roles best suited for vetted, well-known options.
    Most of the experts here seem to be wary of current production 870s and Mossbergs,and with all the troubles Remington has had over the years and currently, manufacturers support is not guaranteed. Aftermarket will fill the void, especially with millions of those things out there, but it is still not a preferably situation. And Mossberg has had lots of chintzy gimmicks and crap themselves, as well as spotty QC, so their are arguments to made that way as well.

    Benelli and Beretta seem to be the closest thing you can get to a sure bet when it comes quality, but that comes at a high buy in cost, and the aftermarket is also both more limited and equally expensive. Their options in the pump realm look good, but are 2x the cost and have almost no aftermarket compared to equivalent Rem and Mossy options.

    Most alternatives are cheap Chinese or Turkish imports that are marketed to the lowest info demographic, and compete on price and the aftermarket and support is practically nonexistent.

    I should note that I have an 870, that I am slowly working to get setup to how I want as a defensive weapon. I am not really in the market for another 12 gauge.

    But in handling the Sentry 12 it intrigued me, especially compared to handling a conventional shotgun, and directly compared to the Rock Island mag fed pump gun next to it, and the mag fed Remington and Mossbergs I've also looked at before.

    Those guns all feel like kludges(because they are) and have all the ergonomic issues of their tube fed counterparts, with all new ones from the mags. The Sentry copies the AR 15 ergos, so the mags felt pretty integrated, and the only iffy thing was the pump itself.

    It's the only mag fed shotgun I've seen so far that actually looks like it could make a decent claim to being an improvement, but then I'm coming from a place of limited experience with shotguns, so I could be completely wrong in my impressions.

    My main interest is mainly curiosity in what people who have lots of experience think about its potential.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    There are all sorts of cheap ARish shotguns on the market but so don’t know if anyone with any real depth of experience with them be a use they are normally bought, shot once or twice and either stored for home defense or pawned.

    Like AKs, the surplus market has artificially depressed realistic perceptions of defensive shotgun pricing.

    Whatever the post bankruptcy version of Remington is they don’t seem to be shipping new shotguns yet.

    If you need a defensive shotgun and Beretta or Benelli are not in the budget Mossberg is still the way to go even if they are not as consistent as the older guns.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    There are all sorts of cheap ARish shotguns on the market but so don’t know if anyone with any real depth of experience with them be a use they are normally bought, shot once or twice and either stored for home defense or pawned.

    Like AKs, the surplus market has artificially depressed realistic perceptions of defensive shotgun pricing.

    Whatever the post bankruptcy version of Remington is they don’t seem to be shipping new shotguns yet.

    If you need a defensive shotgun and Beretta or Benelli are not in the budget Mossberg is still the way to go even if they are not as consistent as the older guns.
    Yeah most of the AR-ish guns are Turkish Rem 1100 copies awkwardly shoved into a plastic shell that resembles one, but are heavy bulky monstrosities.
    Rock Island has their VR80, that is a slightly more refined version if those, but it too is heavy with lots of sci-fi styling crap.

    The Sentry 12 is pump gun, and it is $800, twice what a new Mossberg can be had for. So good ergos, lightweight and Made in USA aside, that's a tough sell on an unknown quantity. Especially since it is competing against those AR-ish semis and Chinese Saiga12 clones in that range.
    But it seems to be the best thought out for what it is.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •