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Thread: JCN’s Taurus 380 Snubbie review

  1. #11
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    Spring kit: (M85 works)

    Came across this video:



    Would be interesting if that improves the shootability closer to the LCP

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Thanks for the reply and context. If you're willing to humor me in the spirit of open discussion.

    What's the difference between:
    "Even when we shoot balloons or paper plates or steel, it's practice for killing something."

    Versus:
    "Even when we shoot for sport/play, it's practice for killing something."

    But it's not. It may very well be helpful in the event that you do need to kill something, any practice that results in better shooters is a good thing, but expertise with .38 Short, .380, etc is poor practice when the need arises to kill large animals, or beligerant humans.

    Then take it a step further:
    "If you're really good at the sport/play skill regardless of the intent... you might be better prepared to kill something if need be."

    Humans at close quarters in an elevator might be a different thing than a coyote standing still 50 yards away.

    You've not shot a coyote in your life, have you? 50 yards? standing still? No it's not like that in my experience and I started killing coyotes for the Feds as a 19 year old.

    @NoTacTravis had a really good analogy about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that I might not do justice to. My best attempt at paraphrasing is that committing to the sport of something based in self defense can often lead to more proficiency at it... there was an example of being able to kick bottles for fun that translated over seamlessly when it came time to kick attackers in the head.

    I trained racing cars for the fun of it. When it came time to use car skill in self-defense, I was better off for it.

    I shoot guns for the fun of it and objectively, I'm pretty decent at it. Practicing for fun doesn't mean it won't still be applicable for self defense or "killing something" if the need be.

    Obviously our utilization is different and you get a kind of ballistic knowledge that I'll never have and I defer to you on that.

    But there's a trade off of ballistics and shootability and a reason why I don't know many LEO that carry 44 mag on duty probably for a reason....
    The average leo doesn't deal with large animals. The last time our local cops faced a black bear they shot it multiple times with low recoil and fast split times using 5.56 tap with little effect and eventually killed it with a Chevy Tahoe.
    If my stoutest potential target was human I wouldn't carry a .44RM. But, I wouldn't carry a .380 either. You of course are free to carry whatever chambering you desire.
    I base my take on seeing many calibers used on living tissue and don't get hurt about people who carry chamberings that I wouldn't.
    But .380 is living on the veeeery, veeeery bottom edge of "it might help me out of a bind" both historically and in my antecdotal experience.
    I'm not content there. You may be so "carry on" and ignore my interuption.

  3. #13
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    @JTMcC well, I definitely wouldn’t recommend a 380 snubbie for black bear defense.

    I guess we are in agreement.

  4. #14
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    I bow out, regretting ever commenting on the thread, I would not recommend .380 for anything except an elderly person not able to handle even 9mm. That was my point, I've decked coyotes with many rounds I'd hate to use against a full grown man and I'd never launch a .380 at a coyote, hence.......
    I don't think we're in agreement but it's the interweb so who cares
    Rock on happily.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTMcC View Post
    I bow out, regretting ever commenting on the thread, I would not recommend .380 for anything except an elderly person not able to handle even 9mm. That was my point, I've decked coyotes with many rounds I'd hate to use against a full grown man and I'd never launch a .380 at a coyote, hence.......
    I don't think we're in agreement but it's the interweb so who cares
    Rock on happily.
    It’s all good, friend! It’s just for fun (I don’t carry 380, I’m just trying to burn up unused calibers).

    Personally 9mm is my minimum recommended caliber, but sometimes I don’t carry anything or carry a pocket 22WMR.

    I was a little surprised that a lot of carry revolver people on PF carry 38 special Gold Dots in their J-frames, so this was just looking at a comparable option.

    This thread is kind of like my Israeli carry video... just because I study something doesn’t mean I use it in practice, it’s more to put information out there in case others are interested and it helps them.

    240 gr at 1200 fps = 800 ft lbs of energy

    Underwood XTP 10mm is 200 gr listed at 1250 fps is about as hot as I have, but I do have a G20 with a 10” barrel that might up the velocity. It’ll be interesting to see what the semi-auto equivalent of your 44 mag would be.

    Some of the lighter 10mm and 357 Sig are faster and make close to 800 ft lbs but I’d imagine you’d want something heavier rather than lighter.

  6. #16
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Its just not energy. .38 wadcutters penetrate deep and straight and damage a lot more tissue than fmj that slip through tissue in weird directions and light bone can deflect them.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Its just not energy. .38 wadcutters penetrate deep and straight and damage a lot more tissue than fmj that slip through tissue in weird directions and light bone can deflect them.
    Do people here carry 38 wadcutters?
    People said they carry 38 Gold Dots.

    An XTP in 380 ACP is almost like a semi-wadcutter with a very small petal.

    Plus the screw top copper Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defender are also good punchers of tissue.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Its just not energy. .38 wadcutters penetrate deep and straight and damage a lot more tissue than fmj that slip through tissue in weird directions and light bone can deflect them.
    Here was a test I did a few years ago with 380ACP through barriers (oak to simulate cortical bone, ballistic gel and canned ham with an outside leather skin...

    It’s not a coyote, but it is what it is.


  9. #19
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    The official PF Ammo Section Sticky Post on .380 & .38, from our own DocGKR: BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

    A snip:

    While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds,they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

    The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.

    While both the .380 ACP and .38 sp can obviously be lethal; the .38 sp is more likely to incapacitate an attacker when used in a BUG role.
    And while spam cans, watermelon, fruit, and the clear stuff looks like it should be a good analogue, it's been reported here (repeatedly!) that performance in properly prepped and calibrated 10% ballistics gel through 4 layers of denim has a better correlation to performance in actual shootings.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    The official PF Ammo Section Sticky Post on .380 & .38, from our own DocGKR: BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

    And while spam cans, watermelon, fruit, and the clear stuff looks like it should be a good analogue, it's been reported here (repeatedly!) that performance in properly prepped and calibrated 10% ballistics gel through 4 layers of denim has a better correlation to performance in actual shootings.
    Agreed. 380 and 38 are both marginal. But that’s why the test. If people are carrying 38 revolvers in civilian life then a 380 revolver might be an option for them.

    I don’t know when those official PF tests were done, but there have been some interesting modern 380 offerings in so called “+P” that have had very good and consistent penetration and expansion by virtue of higher velocities.

    The new 99gr Federal HST is also interesting in testing.

    The fruit and barrier stuff is just for fun and to see visual differences. FBI testing includes performance through steel plates for car doors and sometimes interesting things come out with it rather than just gel and denim.

    I did this one with a 45 degree slanted steel plate testing 300 blk vs 45 ACP

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    Last edited by JCN; 05-05-2021 at 11:27 PM.

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