Catherine Herridge’s Interview with 3 SEALs

[Wake27]

My experience with NSW is limited and outdated, but I doubt this is overblown or due to OPTEMPO. Fame with these units is problematic because it attracts more recruits - the good and bad ones. Some guys join because they want to have a direct effect on our country's strategic goals, some because they just want a challenge and/or rush, and some because they like that these units operate outside of societal norms and many rules. Often, its a bit of everything. I'm not saying that evil guys joined, but I guarantee it exists in at least the NSW ranks. Even a very small amount of that type of evil is extremely toxic.

Operators live outside of societal norms and many times have to break rules for good reasons. It makes sense that lines can become blurred and after too long, disappear all together. But none of that excuses Logan's incident. That was a narcissistic, entitled, invincibility issue that SOF can breed and is clearly out of control in the Navy's most elite circle because those guys must have been operating without rules for far too long to get to that point. I don't have the full picture of the incident but from what I do have, I really can't think of a defense for anyone in that room. To me, unless there are significant facts that have not been released, they all deserve to be tried for treason and executed. They're supposed to be some of America's most elite and therefore most trusted, and yet they killed an American GB in super sketchy circumstances.

[Wake27]

With the downdraw of conventional forces across the board, and the overall visibilty/big Army sorts of bureaucratic hurdles to getting stuff done, more and more SF/SOF types of elements are being tasked with more and more work.

Are they? I'm not saying its slowing down significantly, but I'm not sure its increasing. I do know that future uncertainty is a problem. Us leaving AFG is absolutely causing strong, mixed emotions both about the past and also about what's ahead. Hopefully it'll help ensure the best guys stay, because they are truly dedicated. But we'll lose a lot of good guys as well.

[breakingtime91]

Interesting, I am living right outside an area that houses a Special Forces element of a specific branch. They are under investigation by their branches detectives and local police for drugs, selling military gear, intimidation, and threatening people who "rat" on their conduct. After attending a range where some were blatantly stating "no one can touch us", I believe it is a big issue. I am not one to downplay op tempo and PTSD. I have lost almost ten guys I deployed with to suicide after harsh deployments and experienced and witnessed the burn out that happens when you see and do certain things. I think there are some guys with legitimate and understandable psychological issues from TBI and the stress of doing what is asked of men like them. Then there is another element that reach a certain "mindset" that they are special and the arrogance/ untouchability factor comes into play.

Fuck Marine Corps Infantryman, which I was, have the same attitudes sometimes. "We fight, fuck what you guys think. Your rules don't apply, I'm special."

[HCM]

How many missions are they rolling SF on that conventional troops could be used? Serious question.

What really pisses me off is the fact that they are won't say no, they would rather break these people physically and mentally.
Operators or not, they're just like the rest of us, all they want is to serve honorably.

Re: using conventional troops in traditional SF missions: In addition to what @JRB wrote, the Army tried that directly with the Security Force Assistance Brigades (SFABs). @JRB and others may know better but my understanding is they have not been a success.

Nor can you simply crank out more SF operators like widgets. It's been tried and it didn't work.

Re: your second point, that's not how paramilitary organizations (or service) work in practice. Churchill said it best: “Sometimes doing your best is not good enough. Sometimes you must do what is required.”

I could type out a lengthy response but this is nothing new. If you really want an answer watch the 1949 film "Twelve O'Clock High."

[HCM]

Fame with these units is problematic because it attracts more recruits - the good and bad ones. Some guys join because they want to have a direct effect on our country's strategic goals, some because they just want a challenge and/or rush, and some because they like that these units operate outside of societal norms and many rules. Often, its a bit of everything. I'm not saying that evil guys joined, but I guarantee it exists in at least the NSW ranks. Even a very small amount of that type of evil is extremely toxic.

Operators live outside of societal norms and many times have to break rules for good reasons. It makes sense that lines can become blurred and after too long, disappear all together.

I think you are on to something here. Taking what you wrote a step further, I think the recruits these units attract are a bell curve like anyone else, only more so. But that doesn't explain why some of these units seem to have more / less of these issues than others. The answer to that is the differences in what/who those units select, train and retain for though they all draw from a similar pool of recruits.

I've seen the same thing play out with selection, training and retention in LE. Just like dog breeding you get more of what you select for but you also get more of the second or third order effects of what you select for.

[HCM]

Fuck Marine Corps Infantryman, which I was, have the same attitudes sometimes. "We fight, fuck what you guys think. Your rules don't apply, I'm special."

You start with that group and then select for the most "Fuck You" of the group there will be second and third order effects. Some units seem to do a better job mitigating those second and third order effects via selection, training, culture and retention than others.

[LittleLebowski]

Interesting, I am living right outside an area that houses a Special Forces element of a specific branch. They are under investigation by their branches detectives and local police for drugs, selling military gear, intimidation, and threatening people who "rat" on their conduct. After attending a range where some were blatantly stating "no one can touch us", I believe it is a big issue. I am not one to downplay op tempo and PTSD. I have lost almost ten guys I deployed with to suicide after harsh deployments and experienced and witnessed the burn out that happens when you see and do certain things. I think there are some guys with legitimate and understandable psychological issues from TBI and the stress of doing what is asked of men like them. Then there is another element that reach a certain "mindset" that they are special and the arrogance/ untouchability factor comes into play.

Fuck Marine Corps Infantryman, which I was, have the same attitudes sometimes. "We fight, fuck what you guys think. Your rules don't apply, I'm special."

Well, that goes against the popular narrative regarding this only being an NSW problem.

[Wake27]

Re: using conventional troops in traditional SF missions: In addition to what @JRB wrote, the Army tried that directly with the Security Force Assistance Brigades (SFABs). @JRB and others may know better but my understanding is they have not been a success.

Nor can you simply crank out more SF operators like widgets. It's been tried and it didn't work.

I think its too early to say the SFABs have been a success or a failure. They definitely have growing pains, and started out with some issues, but their premise is good. Its just important that the whole Army, including them, remember that they have one primary mission that has some overlap with a small part of what SF does but they're not SOF and they don't replace SF (who has a far larger mission set).

Your number two point is mostly understood as its one of the SOF truths. But there are always those that try anyways.

Well, that goes against the popular narrative regarding this only being an NSW problem.

Its definitely not just NSW, but I do think they are the worst, or at least the most visibile.

[fixer]

I'm out of that loop, and even if I wasn't, I doubt there's any of that information that could be shared on a public forum.

What I can say is that 2+2 = 4, and here's the 2+2:

- Record numbers of contractors both American and OCN/TCN are being used anywhere they can replace Soldiers, especially in maintenance/sustainment operations. This is done to keep the 'boots on ground' numbers lower. Takes three contractors to do the same as one American Soldier? Oh well. Sadly, in some cases one skilled prior service contractor can do the work of three Soldiers, particularly in fields like aviation maintenance, etc.

- Large conventional units require more time to 'spool up' and get logistics organized etc and actually get deployed. That's expensive and largely unpopular in a lot of circles.

- Our Immediate Reaction Force (IRF) and SF types are the exception. They can also reset and redeploy back stateside in a faster fashion as well. They have more independent control of their logistics, their budgets, and their missions. They also have a 'leaner' chain of command and more operational flexibility.
As we all know, the more staff officers present that count beans, the more lag time, cost, complication, and problems that exist in moving quickly and effectively.


Said another way, imagine that the mission is to move some stuff, and a regular deploying conventional element is a 53ft semi truck with a 30mph speed limiter and very specific rules on when, where, and what can be loaded into the back and how it can be loaded into the back, and where it's allowed to pick up and drop stuff off. There's also rules on inspecting the truck, ensuring it's maintained to a specific standard, and the truck doesn't move at all unless all those conditions are met. But when all those conditions are met, we can move a LOT of shit and move some of the biggest shit around - just slowly and with a lot of paperwork and other crap.

Meanwhile, SF/SOF elements are a 650hp pickup truck with an 8ft bed and basically no other rules beyond 'don't lose any of the shit you're carrying'.
For awhile now, it has been much faster to make multiple trips to everything, filling that 8ft bed every time and blasting around the desert at 100mph, and thereby driving the wheels off that truck.
Except now the check engine light is on, it's leaking oil, the tires are bald, and it's making some weird noises. Leadership will pay lip service to those concerns and maybe get it a new set of tires and make sure there's enough oil to keep it topped off. But they're not going to think it's a real problem until they're driving that truck somewhere and it breaks down.

At which point the leadership will say 'what a piece of shit truck' and wonder why it broke because it was working just fine with the check engine light and bad tires etc just 15 minutes ago.

GODDAMN this is a good post and this crap goes on in many other areas outside of military.

What I call it is being a "victim of your own success".

[LittleLebowski]

Its definitely not just NSW, but I do think they are the worst, or at least the most visibile.

I don’t dispute that.