Covington KY PD issues Sig Legions

[Lon]

If you have a dept. that is using DA/SA, why switch?

It’s almost impossible to find a good duty holster for an RDS equipped DA/SA.

[TGS]

Sometimes the least expensive equipment isn't the best equipment for a given organization.

The same applies just as much to expensive equipment, like a SIG Legion series pistol.....

[PNWTO]

I think it's mostly bean counters buying strikers. Personally I don't see any advantage of a striker over DA/SA other than they are less expensive. If you have a dept. that is using DA/SA, why switch?

The WA State Patrol went to M&P 40s almost as soon as they came out. They had been using USP 40s for a very long time; S&W came in at a very attractive price point and, at the time (and probably now), offered much better agency support than HK.

It’s all hearsay but I’ve heard from multiple WSP leaders that the customer service and parts availability was the biggest driver, the price just a nice extra.

N=1 and all that...

[OlongJohnson]

A lot of discussion in this thread seems to be based in thinking that the PD went from something else to the P226s. OP says they went from P226s in .40 to P226s in 9. So they kept everything the same, no new training, no new support equipment, etc. required. Just changed caliber. Seems like a pretty easy decision. A city of 40k probably isn't buying enough to get Sig to do a special run of non-Legion guns for them.

[HCM]

The whole “the bean counters buy striker fired guns” thing is nonsense.



Striker fired guns have a single trigger pull which is short and light, making them easier to shoot well. That means getting people trained and qualified as quickly as possible with fewer rounds.

The man hours for both instructors and officers and the ammunition expended in training both FAR exceed the cost of the gun.,

[DpdG]

The whole “the bean counters buy striker fired guns” thing is nonsense.



Striker fired guns have a single trigger pull which is short and light, making them easier to shoot well. That means getting people trained and qualified as quickly as possible with fewer rounds.

The man hours for both instructors and officers and the ammunition expended in training both FAR exceed the cost of the gun.,

This. A thousand times this.

Even in a small agency (20ish officers), the time and ammo cost of annual training/quals per person is nearly equal to purchase price of the guns. Figure about 16 hours/year at OT rate, ammo, plus instructor time, versus a $400-600 gun. If equipment selection leads to reduced remedial training, that can be a significant savings. That’s before getting into potential “reasonable accommodation” issues related to hand size.

[Snapshot]

Not my lane, not my circus, etc, however:

I get the cost-benefit aspects of easier training & qualification, and the relatively low value of the actual handgun in the overall scheme of things.

But I wonder if there might be an opposite cost-benefit involving inadvertent shooting being a little less likely (first round anyway) with a TDA handgun compared to a striker fired one. This would be difficult to quantify, and proper training (even just the four rules) should cover it, but still... one round fired inadvertently could end up costing a department or agency lot more than could be saved in training and qualification. An extra pound or two of trigger weight might make a difference, especially when holding suspects at gunpoint, evaluating shoot/don't shoot, startle factor, etc.

[Borderland]

Not my lane, not my circus, etc, however:

I get the cost-benefit aspects of easier training & qualification, and the relatively low value of the actual handgun in the overall scheme of things.

But I wonder if there might be an opposite cost-benefit involving inadvertent shooting being a little less likely (first round anyway) with a TDA handgun compared to a striker fired one. This would be difficult to quantify, and proper training (even just the four rules) should cover it, but still... one round fired inadvertently could end up costing a department or agency lot more than could be saved in training and qualification. An extra pound or two of trigger weight might make a difference, especially when holding suspects at gunpoint, evaluating shoot/don't shoot, startle factor, etc.

I personally know of an incident where a sheriffs deputy killed an unarmed person with an MP5 when the officer thought it "was in a safe condition". In other words he had his finger on the trigger in a high stress situation. Only one round was fired. That one round cost the county 2 million dollars.

But you never hear about the details. Most people wouldn't understand it anyway. Score it as a negligent discharge and pay the bill.

It won't get better, just worse. Attorneys aren't stupid. Especially the ones that understand fire control systems. Reasonable doubt.

[BehindBlueI's]

Not my lane, not my circus, etc, however:

I get the cost-benefit aspects of easier training & qualification, and the relatively low value of the actual handgun in the overall scheme of things.

But I wonder if there might be an opposite cost-benefit involving inadvertent shooting being a little less likely (first round anyway) with a TDA handgun compared to a striker fired one. This would be difficult to quantify, and proper training (even just the four rules) should cover it, but still... one round fired inadvertently could end up costing a department or agency lot more than could be saved in training and qualification. An extra pound or two of trigger weight might make a difference, especially when holding suspects at gunpoint, evaluating shoot/don't shoot, startle factor, etc.

And what of the liability of shots fired intentionally but that miss? Because, frankly, misses are much much more common than UDs "in the wild" in policing. I get the argument, and if I recall the Force Science stuff correctly about 1/3 startle responses will be in the Goldilocks zone where they set off a single action trigger but not a double action. I don't know if they studied SFA vs TDA specifically. I've got my doubts on manual safety guns for general issue. I think it can be argued until the cows come home if TDA is better than SFA for general issue, but I see very few departments going the other way. Indiana State Police being the last example of any size that I personally know of, going from Glock 21s to Sig P227s.

[fly out]

And what of the liability of shots fired intentionally but that miss? Because, frankly, misses are much much more common than UDs "in the wild" in policing. I get the argument, and if I recall the Force Science stuff correctly about 1/3 startle responses will be in the Goldilocks zone where they set off a single action trigger but not a double action. I don't know if they studied SFA vs TDA specifically. I've got my doubts on manual safety guns for general issue. I think it can be argued until the cows come home if TDA is better than SFA for general issue, but I see very few departments going the other way. Indiana State Police being the last example of any size that I personally know of, going from Glock 21s to Sig P227s.

Don't some infamous Glock departments famously spray rounds everywhere but toward the bad guy? [cough, cough, NYPD LAPD, cough cough]