Covington KY PD issues Sig Legions

[DpdG]

Not my lane, not my circus, etc, however:

I get the cost-benefit aspects of easier training & qualification, and the relatively low value of the actual handgun in the overall scheme of things.

But I wonder if there might be an opposite cost-benefit involving inadvertent shooting being a little less likely (first round anyway) with a TDA handgun compared to a striker fired one. This would be difficult to quantify, and proper training (even just the four rules) should cover it, but still... one round fired inadvertently could end up costing a department or agency lot more than could be saved in training and qualification. An extra pound or two of trigger weight might make a difference, especially when holding suspects at gunpoint, evaluating shoot/don't shoot, startle factor, etc.

Think of it as a frequency/likelihood thing- For the sake of example, lets go with the premise of a TDA system that could reduce the likelihood of an unintended discharge xx%, but at a cost of greater training and probably turnover due to some employees who can qualify on a SFA weapon but not TDA. UDs with injuries are huge liability, but very low frequency. The costs for training and retention/recruitment (plus possible litigation on the part of those borderline employees requesting "reasonable accommodation" via SFA) are pretty significant AND will be moderate to high frequency.

EDIT- There is little consensus as to exactly how much a TDA pistol reduces unintended discharges. While intuitively I believe they provide some extra people management margin for error (see LASD migration from B92 to SFA), I suspect most startle responses are strong enough to pass clean through most all DA triggers. Unless you are proposing 1895 Nagant revolvers that is....

[Borderland]

Don't some infamous Glock departments famously spray rounds everywhere but toward the bad guy? [cough, cough, NYPD LAPD, cough cough]

So much for the training dollar. Obviously there wasn't enough, even with a Glock.

[Borderland]

It’s almost impossible to find a good duty holster for an RDS equipped DA/SA.

How many dept.'s are using RDS? Haven't seen any where I live. My neighbor is a sheriffs deputy for a county with 800K population. He doesn't have a RDS on his duty weapon.

[OlongJohnson]

...I suspect most startle responses are strong enough to pass clean through most all DA triggers.

This is one thing that I have not seen any data on. We know that the force applied in a startle response has been studied, but it's not clear whether that force was measured against a fixed and non-moving, or a moving trigger, and whether it was an SA break or a long DA stroke. It's easy to apply a large amount of force instantaneously on a non-moving surface, but if that surface yields or moves away in response to the force, the maximum force applied may be much less.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has measured the effect of trigger stroke on the tendency to actually break a shot when startled. It is intuitively obvious that a longer DA stroke provides an opportunity for a reflexive muscle response or even sorta-conscious awareness to detect the motion and stop, whereas a single-action break with very little travel does not. Some people very well versed in the issue continue to believe that the stroke length of the DA trigger has more to do with it than the force required.

As an engineer, I think about the work done, which is force * distance through which the force is applied. Since the force is variable, it is common to talk about "area under the curve." An 8- or 10-lb DA trigger can take significantly more mechanical work to reach the break than a shorter travel trigger with 12+ lb of force required to fire. It's a reasonable hypothesis that work would be a meaningful metric to be used as a standard of evaluation or indication of the likelihood of discharging a handgun by pressing the trigger unintentionally. I would like to see it studied scientifically.

[HCM]

Think of it as a frequency/likelihood thing- For the sake of example, lets go with the premise of a TDA system that could reduce the likelihood of an unintended discharge xx%, but at a cost of greater training and probably turnover due to some employees who can qualify on a SFA weapon but not TDA. UDs with injuries are huge liability, but very low frequency. The costs for training and retention/recruitment (plus possible litigation on the part of those borderline employees requesting "reasonable accommodation" via SFA) are pretty significant AND will be moderate to high frequency.

EDIT- There is little consensus as to exactly how much a TDA pistol reduces unintended discharges. While intuitively I believe they provide some extra people management margin for error (see LASD migration from B92 to SFA), I suspect most startle responses are strong enough to pass clean through most all DA triggers. Unless you are proposing 1895 Nagant revolvers that is....

Agreed on the frequency /likelihood argument.

And we have discussed on PF before, the best research in both the U.S. and Germany indicates that 1) length of pull is more significant to preventing NDs and that most startle responses generated 50-60lbs of pressure, more than strong enough to blow through any DA trigger.

TDA guns do have sone advantages in regards to being able to thumb check the hammer when holstering and in regards to foreign objects getting into the trigger.

Re: LASD I think the issue is not simple as the physical margin of error as the B92 /TDA guns allowed some bad habits from DA revolvers (finger on trigger /trigger checking under stress) to propagate long after the agency changed their training to reflect proper trigger finger discipline. The change to SFA forced the change the agency had previously tried to implement.

[TC215]

How many dept.'s are using RDS? Haven't seen any where I live. My neighbor is a sheriffs deputy for a county with 800K population. He doesn't have a RDS on his duty weapon.

They’re becoming much more common.

[HCM]

This is one thing that I have not seen any data on. We know that the force applied in a startle response has been studied, but it's not clear whether that force was measured against a fixed and non-moving, or a moving trigger, and whether it was an SA break or a long DA stroke. It's easy to apply a large amount of force instantaneously on a non-moving surface, but if that surface yields or moves away in response to the force, the maximum force applied may be much less.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has measured the effect of trigger stroke on the tendency to actually break a shot when startled. It is intuitively obvious that a longer DA stroke provides an opportunity for a reflexive muscle response or even sorta-conscious awareness to detect the motion and stop, whereas a single-action break with very little travel does not. Some people very well versed in the issue continue to believe that the stroke length of the DA trigger has more to do with it than the force required.

As an engineer, I think about the work done, which is force * distance through which the force is applied. Since the force is variable, it is common to talk about "area under the curve." An 8- or 10-lb DA trigger can take significantly more mechanical work to reach the break than a shorter travel trigger with 12+ lb of force required to fire. It's a reasonable hypothesis that work would be a meaningful metric to be used as a standard of evaluation or indication of the likelihood of discharging a handgun by pressing the trigger unintentionally. I would like to see it studied scientifically.

There are sone studies /data on this - you’ll have to search PF as I don’t have the mental bandwidth for it tonight but it’s been posted here a few times. Basically how the German police would up requesting longer but lighter triggers like LEM and sone of the weird Walther stuff.

[Borderland]

They’re becoming much more common.

Do you have to turn it on before you shoot someone?

[Lon]

Do you have to turn it on before you shoot someone?

Uh, no. Check out the threads in the RDO sub forum. Lots of good info.

And there are more and more agencies running them. There are at least 3 in my county that are (including mine).

[TGS]

The idea that it's easier to train LEOs on a single trigger pull gun (SFA) as opposed to a DA/SA mousetrap is one that I'm not entirely sure I can agree with....at least yet.

Our aggregate qualification scores went down about 5% when we transitioned from the SIG P229 to the Glock 19. There could be a few factors involved in that, but at the very least it's hard data that gives me pause to toe the party line that you can get better shooters, quicker, from a SFA vs a TDA.