Covington KY PD issues Sig Legions

[wvincent]

The idea that it's easier to train LEOs on a single trigger pull gun (SFA) as opposed to a DA/SA mousetrap is one that I'm not entirely sure I can agree with....at least yet.

Our aggregate qualification scores went down about 5% when we transitioned from the SIG P229 to the Glock 19. There could be a few factors involved in that, but at the very least it's hard data that gives me pause to toe the party line that you can get better shooters, quicker, from a SFA vs a TDA.

Aside from trigger snatching, what would cause that decrease? The 229 and the 19 grip should be about the same size, but the angle is going to be a bit different.
Considering your Agency, I'm assuming that your transition course was pretty serious.
Your data is actually kind of weird.

Any assumptions you want to share?

[TheNewbie]

Aside from trigger snatching, what would cause that decrease? The 229 and the 19 grip should be about the same size, but the angle is going to be a bit different.
Considering your Agency, I'm assuming that your transition course was pretty serious.
Your data is actually kind of weird.

Any assumptions you want to share?

Maybe trigger pull characteristics? How the gun fits in the hand? I don’t mean comfort or fits like a glove. Fits in the since it moves around less in recoil, allows for a more consistent trigger pull.


Just some thoughts, no idea if there is any truth in them.


My P-07 is naturally easier to shoot than Glocks and wouldn’t be a bad general issue gun in my opinion.

[wvincent]

Maybe trigger pull characteristics? How the gun fits in the hand? I don’t mean comfort or fits like a glove. Fits in the since it moves around less in recoil, allows for a more consistent trigger pull.


Just some thoughts, no idea if there is any truth in them.


My P-07 is naturally easier to shoot than Glocks and wouldn’t be a bad general issue gun in my opinion.

A transition course at Fed level, should iron out those little things like grip and such.
I mean, it ain't like they had to bring their ammo from home.

[TGS]

Aside from trigger snatching, what would cause that decrease? The 229 and the 19 grip should be about the same size, but the angle is going to be a bit different.
Considering your Agency, I'm assuming that your transition course was pretty serious.
Your data is actually kind of weird.

Any assumptions you want to share?

I honestly don't know what the proscribed transition course was, as I didn't do it. I did a 3,000 round course with a loaner 19M before I was issued one, and then my actual transition happened during a 3 month course firing another few thousand rounds from the gun, in addition to doing a ton of tactics and scenarios with the UTM versions, all of which lend to better performance with a platform. In addition, we had already been training on the Glock Gen 3 during this three month course for the last 10 years or so as they've been an issue/approved pistol overseas for a while....so, the majority of agents had significant training on the Glock platform outside of the proscribed transition course.

My thoughts are that the Ameriglo Agent front sight does what it's advertised to do, and does it very well; it's nuclear-explosion bright, which might cause many agents to have trouble focusing on the hard edges of the front sight as the shooters attention is naturally drawn to the dot. The average shooter can't articulate why they have trouble, they just know they don't shoot as well....so it's just a guess on my part as I see their accuracy dropping off at 25, which is usually indicative of not focusing on the front sight. Me personally, I shoot more accurately with the 19M/Ameriglo combo than any other semi-auto pistol save the Beretta 92.

But, regardless, in any case it doesn't seem that going to SFA has actually made anything easier on paper. The data doesn't support it, at least. ETA: Even though I'm not tied down to the TDA platform anymore, I still think people make a bigger deal out of it than it really is. We didn't have trouble training people on it before, and nothing in that regard has changed. People who suck still suck, people who are good are still good, and overall our scores went down regardless of going to a platform that is supposed to be easier to shoot according to common dogma.

We also just adopted a new pistol qualification last month which is harder than the old one, so we've had to hold a lot of remedial training to get people up to the new standard as we were seeing 10% failure rates on it for the Glock 19M during beta-testing. So it's not like we'll be able to look at long term trends over the period of a decade compared to the P229.

[wvincent]

I honestly don't know what the proscribed transition course was, as I didn't do it. I did a 3,000 round course with a loaner 19M before I was issued one, and then my actual transition happened during a 3 month course firing another few thousand rounds from the gun, in addition to doing a ton of tactics and scenarios with the UTM versions, all of which lend to better performance with a platform. In addition, we had already been training on the Glock Gen 3 during this three month course for the last 10 years or so as they've been an issue/approved pistol overseas for a while....so, the majority of agents had significant training on the Glock platform outside of the proscribed transition course.

My thoughts are that the Ameriglo Agent front sight does what it's advertised to do, and does it very well; it's nuclear-explosion bright, which might cause many agents to have trouble focusing on the hard edges of the front sight as the shooters attention is naturally drawn to the dot. The average shooter can't articulate why they have trouble, they just know they don't shoot as well....so it's just a guess on my part as I see their accuracy dropping off at 25, which is usually indicative of not focusing on the front sight. Me personally, I shoot more accurately with the 19M/Ameriglo combo than any other semi-auto pistol save the Beretta 92.

But, regardless, in any case it doesn't seem that going to SFA has actually made anything easier on paper. The data doesn't support it, at least. ETA: Even though I'm not tied down to the TDA platform anymore, I still think people make a bigger deal out of it than it really is. We didn't have trouble training people on it before, and nothing in that regard has changed. People who suck still suck, people who are good are still good, and overall our scores went down regardless of going to a platform that is supposed to be easier to shoot according to common dogma.

We also just adopted a new pistol qualification last month which is harder than the old one, so we've had to hold a lot of remedial training to get people up to the new standard as we were seeing 10% failure rates on it for the Glock 19M during beta-testing. So it's not like we'll be able to look at long term trends over the period of a decade compared to the P229.

Never even considered the Ameriglo's being "too bright".........so many little things.

Is there an open source for your current qual/course of fire? I'm betting it's tough. But I'm game if I can find it.

[KevH]

@MattyD380

http://www.covingtonky.gov/Portals/c...ns%20ISSUE.pdf

Apparently they carried 40 S&W P226's before and when they decided transition to a 9mm they opted to buy everyone the black LE version P226 Legion.

Classy move in my opinion if you aren't going to swap for a plastic gun.

[DpdG]

I have a small data set to work with- but my experience with about 25 officers transitioning from p226/40 to p320/9 was that the strong shooters were still strong, and while the poor shooters weren’t magically good, they at least sucked less. Training time needed for new hires was improved as well. Can’t say for certain that it was purely due to SFA vs caliber, but as a combined system it would appear to be an improvement.

[TGS]

Never even considered the Ameriglo's being "too bright".........so many little things.

Is there an open source for your current qual/course of fire? I'm betting it's tough. But I'm game if I can find it.

It's not tough if you possess basic competency. Certainly not anything like the FAMS TPC, if that's what you're imagining. I shot it on our challenge target using a 6" bull as a max scoring ring, with the normal max scoring ring instead counting for -1 and outside on the body counting for -2. I still got a 227 out of 230. On the same challenge target, I shot all the 3 yard stages at 7 yards, and still got a 209 out of 230.

It's a step in the right direction, is all. Standby and I'll find something for you.

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't some infamous Glock departments famously spray rounds everywhere but toward the bad guy? [cough, cough, NYPD LAPD, cough cough]

Are you arguing they would fire less rounds with a TDA? Fighting the tendency to run the gun like a sewing machine under stress was the logic behind the DAK trigger, and everyone I know who keeps stats saw total rounds fired per encounter go up with they transitioned away from DAOs.

[Bucky]

I think it can be argued until the cows come home if TDA is better than SFA for general issue, but I see very few departments going the other way. Indiana State Police being the last example of any size that I personally know of, going from Glock 21s to Sig P227s.

PA State as well, IIRC. Same transition.