Covington KY PD issues Sig Legions

[MattyD380]

If you were King for the day, and you needed to equip a training class of officers with a pistol, and you could choose any pistol, any firing mechanism, what would you choose?

Training class experience is mixed, some familiar, some having only seen pistols on Netflix.

Not that my opinion is worth much of a shit here... but...

Beretta 92. I feel like it's an easy pistol to shoot well. The grip--even to my small hands--feels great. Better than a P226, actually. It's DA/SA. It's reliable. Proven. Etc. The caveat being... mine had a worn trigger bar that made the DA pull suck and hard to manage. If they could get around that, it gets my vote.

[BehindBlueI's]

Can't speak from a law enforcement perspective, but from a personal standpoint... I prefer the "detente" of a DA pull followed by an (arguably) easier-to-shoot SA trigger.

I've read some articles/anecdotes that suggested unintentional discharges went up when certain departments (e.g., LAPD) switched to SFA. One could potentially see that as a "training issue"... but if you need more training with trigger-finger discipline etc., etc. with SFA... that sorta negates the argument against DA/SA (in that they require more training).

I prefer TDA as well, but I've detailed the whys ad nauseum elsewhere.

Briefly, yes, some departments did see an uptick in UDs, but they then settled back down. It was a training issue. You have probably always been taught to keep you finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. That wasn't always how people were trained, and "finger on the trigger to reduce reaction time" was as real a thing as holsters that exposed the trigger for faster access. You can get away with it more often with a revolver with a DA pull and the visual feedback of the hammer creeping backward then you can with an SFA. Once the training was updated, the UDs went back to pretty much what they were with revolvers in the field, but stayed higher for admin handling. That's not a SFA issue, it's a semi-auto issue.

For the record, my department has been 1600-1800-ish officers since I've been here right at 15 years now. We've been Glock since I've been here, but they had Berettas between revolvers and Glocks. We've, to the best of my knowledge, never accidentally shot someone due to a finger unintentionally pulling a trigger. We *have* had an accidental shooting from a holstered gun where equipment got in the opening and pressed the trigger when the officer stood up, and we've had some admin accidents without injury at the range or at homes, but figure we've had a lot of guns pointed at a lot of people over the years so Glocks aren't really hair trigger guns ready to go off. We went from the NY trigger to the standard trigger when we went to Gen 3s with no change in that record.

[KevH]

If you were King for the day, and you needed to equip a training class of officers with a pistol, and you could choose any pistol, any firing mechanism, what would you choose?

Training class experience is mixed, some familiar, some having only seen pistols on Netflix.

Honestly Glocks with S&W M&P coming in a distant second.

Easy to shoot (and easy to teach), lightweight, reliable, cost effective and easy to maintain (both by the individual officer and as a department armorer).

Add in that everyone and their mother makes holsters/mag pouches and training devices for them and I can't think of a good reason to go with anything else.

[KevH]

Yep, that was the material I referenced. I think it said somewhere that they purchased 123 guns? Plus holsters and ammo... from a reseller in Indiana. Which is interesting. For whatever reason I just figured agencies and departments would go through the manufacturer for "institutional" purchases.

Manufacturers do not sell directly to departments.

Typically a factory rep comes out and helps broker the deal. They'll typically promise free training and ongoing support.

The rep then puts the department in contact with a geographically based LE distributor who handles the trade-in and new purchase of guns and holsters and other accessories.

Typically on going support and small parts are purchased through the manufacturer.

[HCM]

If you were King for the day, and you needed to equip a training class of officers with a pistol, and you could choose any pistol, any firing mechanism, what would you choose?

Training class experience is mixed, some familiar, some having only seen pistols on Netflix.

Glock 17 gen 5/M MOS with talon rubber grip tape, Gadgets, and RDS.

Will start with red dots then teach irons.

The new shooters won't know any other way to shoot and those who've shot before can be coached to shoot a Glock like a Glock.

I'd use the extra time that might be dedicated to a TDA gun to do tactics and force on force training.

Any duty gun selected today is for the next 10-15 years which means anything that is not at least RDS capable is out of consideration.

You're also going to either need to stick with something Safariland makes a duty holster for or be willing to pay Safariland to cut a mold for your choice.

[WobblyPossum]

Glock 17 gen 5/M MOS with talon rubber grip tape, Gadgets, and RDS.

Will start with red dots then teach irons.

The new shooters won't know any other way to shoot and those who've shot before can be coached to shoot a Glock like a Glock.

I'd use the extra time that might be dedicated to a TDA gun to do tactics and force on force training.

Any duty gun selected today is for the next 10-15 years which means anything that is not at least RDS capable is out of consideration.

You're also going to either need to stick with something Safariland makes a duty holster for or be willing to pay Safariland to cut a mold for your choice.

I would like to apply to your police department.

[DpdG]

Glock 17 gen 5/M MOS with talon rubber grip tape, Gadgets, and RDS.

Will start with red dots then teach irons.

The new shooters won't know any other way to shoot and those who've shot before can be coached to shoot a Glock like a Glock.

I'd use the extra time that might be dedicated to a TDA gun to do tactics and force on force training.

Any duty gun selected today is for the next 10-15 years which means anything that is not at least RDS capable is out of consideration.

You're also going to either need to stick with something Safariland makes a duty holster for or be willing to pay Safariland to cut a mold for your choice.

I don't have enough time on gen 5 grip texture to know if the grip tape is needed/worth the mess as it ages, but otherwise I would make a similar call with G45 or G47 as acceptable substitutes. I'd probably vote for something in the TLR7/9 (depending on barrel length) form factor for lights due to holster mouth width concerns.

[Utm]

I don't have enough time on gen 5 grip texture to know if the grip tape is needed/worth the mess as it ages, but otherwise I would make a similar call with G45 or G47 as acceptable substitutes. I'd probably vote for something in the TLR7/9 (depending on barrel length) form factor for lights due to holster mouth width concerns.

I just can't get on board with a tlr7 being for anything besides an edc wml

[AMC]

Can't speak from a law enforcement perspective, but from a personal standpoint... I prefer the "detente" of a DA pull followed by an (arguably) easier-to-shoot SA trigger.

I've read some articles/anecdotes that suggested unintentional discharges went up when certain departments (e.g., LAPD) switched to SFA. One could potentially see that as a "training issue"... but if you need more training with trigger-finger discipline etc., etc. with SFA... that sorta negates the argument against DA/SA (in that they require more training).

I dunno. I feel like there's no free lunch--you gotta teach people to use guns. But hey--I'm in marketing, not law enforcement.

It's interesting to hear that scores when down when switching from 229s to 19s in TGS's agency. It may just be that something (anything) new requires a period of adjustment. That said, from a personal perspective, I tend to think Glocks (and other non-fully-cocked SFA guns) are difficult to shoot well. Others here don't. But I find it hard to believe that even inexperienced cops would shoot a G19 (or M&P, etc.) better than a heavy, lower-recoiling gun that transitions to a nice and crisp SA trigger after the first shot.

The Negligent discharge increase after the switch with the agency in question was not with new trainees...it was with veteran officers who had been given inadequate training on the new system. They were coming from Beretta 92FS pistols mandated to be carried 'On-Safe', and from a many had internalized an old interpretation of "On Target- On Trigger" that had them pointing guns at too many people (common in LE, in my opinion). The administrators of that agency didn't listen to their training staff, and gave them 1/3 of the time they requested for the transition. Hey, what could go wrong, right? It's exhibit A in my argument for our transition course to be 20 hrs. I dont care that you can pass a stupid in service qualification in 2 hrs....I care that you can be safe with the new gun.

And it wasn't LAPD.....even the guys at the agency in question will tell you LAPD did the transition right.

[DpdG]

I just can't get on board with a tlr7 being for anything besides an edc wml

Currently have P320 Carry/TLR7 as duty gun- distance throw isn't its strongest suit although it's been surprisingly capable- it's decent for positive ID inside 25y and ok beyond that. I like the switching and holster fit is much better for foreign object intrusion protection.

In the hypothetical the G17/47 would get the TLR9, the G45 would get the 7.

EDIT- phrasing