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Thread: Glocks (again)

  1. #1
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    Glocks (again)

    Okay so I bought all the Glocks. Now I am setting about the task of figuring which work the best for me.

    I am a long time 1911 shooter and enthusiast, and I have used a 1911 for carry and home defense for years. But I have decided that my choice of a pistol for carry and home defense should be more about shooting and other practical considerations than it is about the gun itself. I will continue to own and shoot 1911s, but from now on they will probably be more an indulgence for me rather than my main training/practice focus. I truly enjoy shooting my 1911s, and I also enjoy working on them, taking them apart, reassembling them, etc... and I have an appreciation for JMB's genius as exemplified in the 1911 pistol. But it's time for a change.

    Okay, so I didn't really buy all the Glocks. But I bought some. My current inventory includes the following:
    Gen 3 G17
    Gen 3 G34 (I really really like this gun)
    Gen 5 G17
    Gen 4 G21
    Gen 4 G41

    All the above are equipped with the SCD. I already have AIWB holsters for the G17 and G34/G41. I have one coming for the G21. I have sufficient magazines for both 9mm and 45ACP for now.

    I have been taking all the above to the range over the past several weeks, and these are my observations so far:

    I shoot the 45s better than the 9s. This is also true with 1911s, so it wasn't a big surprise. I am not sure why this is true, but it is. My follow up shots are a little slower with the 45s but I shoot the 45s more accurately over all.

    Out of the 9s, I shoot the G34 the best, followed by the Gen 5 G17. With the Gen 3 G17 I shoot all over the target. I haven't figured out yet whether there is something about the pistol or if I just shoot the Gen 5 trigger better or what. But there is an obvious difference between how the Gen 3 G17 shoots for me vs the Gen 5 G17. I shoot the G34 better than either of the G17s. I think it's something about the barrel/slide length and balance of the gun that makes the difference. The finger grooves don't seem to matter a whole lot to me.

    At the end of this experimental phase I will select a pistol for carry and another for home defense use. I will also make whatever purchases necessary to ensure I have a duplicate of each for training/practice etc... The longer G34 and G41 are only slightly less comfortable to me when carrying -- and it only matters when seated. So I could possibly end up with several G34s or G41s for carry, home defense, and training/practice. Or not.

    The HD weapon will probably be either the G34 or G41, as I like the extra length when a light is attached.

    I'm sure others here on the forum have gone through a similar process. I welcome any experiences, insights, advice, whatever is relevant to this experiment. At the very least, it's a fun way to arrive at a solution because I enjoy shooting the pistols. Almost as much as my 1911s.

    Please consider this an open thread/subject and post whatever thoughts you have. I choose advice carefully, but I welcome it here on this forum.

  2. #2
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    Consider an MR920 or DR920 and then you can get the grip angle similar to a 1911.

    Consider training with a red dot (a dot with a large window obviates some of the grip differences on presentation).

    Eventually if you put the time in, you can shoot any of the Glocks well and similarly.

    If you can’t, it just means more time needs to be spent on fundamentals and some compensation is creeping through in the perceived differences.

  3. #3
    In my experience caliber differences and grip length differences are going to have the biggest effect on how the guns shoot at speed. I don't think there is any real difference in mechanical accuracy, so if you're seeing that the .45s group much better than your 9mms, it may be that your 9mm ammo is just not as good as the .45 ammo you're shooting, or there is something going on psychologically that is causing you to group differently. The Gen 5 guns are also mechanically more precise than the Gen 3 guns.

    I like 9s a lot more than I like .40 or .45. As someone whose first gun was a 9mm G19 I guess that's just my baseline and I'm loathe to go to any caliber that requires more work to control recoil with.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    Okay so I bought all the Glocks. Now I am setting about the task of figuring which work the best for me.

    I am a long time 1911 shooter and enthusiast, and I have used a 1911 for carry and home defense for years. But I have decided that my choice of a pistol for carry and home defense should be more about shooting and other practical considerations than it is about the gun itself. I will continue to own and shoot 1911s, but from now on they will probably be more an indulgence for me rather than my main training/practice focus. I truly enjoy shooting my 1911s, and I also enjoy working on them, taking them apart, reassembling them, etc... and I have an appreciation for JMB's genius as exemplified in the 1911 pistol. But it's time for a change.

    Okay, so I didn't really buy all the Glocks. But I bought some. My current inventory includes the following:
    Gen 3 G17
    Gen 3 G34 (I really really like this gun)
    Gen 5 G17
    Gen 4 G21
    Gen 4 G41

    All the above are equipped with the SCD. I already have AIWB holsters for the G17 and G34/G41. I have one coming for the G21. I have sufficient magazines for both 9mm and 45ACP for now.

    I have been taking all the above to the range over the past several weeks, and these are my observations so far:

    I shoot the 45s better than the 9s. This is also true with 1911s, so it wasn't a big surprise. I am not sure why this is true, but it is. My follow up shots are a little slower with the 45s but I shoot the 45s more accurately over all.

    Out of the 9s, I shoot the G34 the best, followed by the Gen 5 G17. With the Gen 3 G17 I shoot all over the target. I haven't figured out yet whether there is something about the pistol or if I just shoot the Gen 5 trigger better or what. But there is an obvious difference between how the Gen 3 G17 shoots for me vs the Gen 5 G17. I shoot the G34 better than either of the G17s. I think it's something about the barrel/slide length and balance of the gun that makes the difference. The finger grooves don't seem to matter a whole lot to me.

    At the end of this experimental phase I will select a pistol for carry and another for home defense use. I will also make whatever purchases necessary to ensure I have a duplicate of each for training/practice etc... The longer G34 and G41 are only slightly less comfortable to me when carrying -- and it only matters when seated. So I could possibly end up with several G34s or G41s for carry, home defense, and training/practice. Or not.

    The HD weapon will probably be either the G34 or G41, as I like the extra length when a light is attached.

    I'm sure others here on the forum have gone through a similar process. I welcome any experiences, insights, advice, whatever is relevant to this experiment. At the very least, it's a fun way to arrive at a solution because I enjoy shooting the pistols. Almost as much as my 1911s.

    Please consider this an open thread/subject and post whatever thoughts you have. I choose advice carefully, but I welcome it here on this forum.
    Consider trying a Grip Force Adaptor on the 9mms. Unlike the factory Gen 4/5 backstraps the GFA changes the grip angle and makes it more 1911-like.

    Re: the 9 vs 45 performance difference, it may be a mental thing wherein you unconsciously relax your grip slightly because you know it's "only a 9mm."

    When we transitioned from 40s to 9mms at work, scores initially went up as the shooters were applying their "40 grip" to the 9mm. As they have adapted to the new normal, scores have been sliding back a bit as the shooters have fall into "9mm grips."

    Re: gen 3 issues, are you running the Gen 5 guns with no back strap ? The Gen3 grip has finger grooves and is the same size / has the same trigger reach as the Gen 4/5 with medium backstraps. The Gen 3 also has a much slicker texture that the Gen 4/5 guns. Maybe try some Talon pre cut grip tape ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Consider trying a Grip Force Adaptor on the 9mms. Unlike the factory Gen 4/5 backstraps the GFA changes the grip angle and makes it more 1911-like.

    Re: the 9 vs 45 performance difference, it may be a mental thing wherein you unconsciously relax your grip slightly because you know it's "only a 9mm."

    When we transitioned from 40s to 9mms at work, scores initially went up as the shooters were applying their "40 grip" to the 9mm. As they have adapted to the new normal, scores have been sliding back a bit as the shooters have fall into "9mm grips."

    Re: gen 3 issues, are you running the Gen 5 guns with no back strap ? The Gen3 grip has finger grooves and is the same size / has the same trigger reach as the Gen 4/5 with medium backstraps. The Gen 3 also has a much slicker texture that the Gen 4/5 guns. Maybe try some Talon pre cut grip tape ?
    Yeah I am trying to put my finger on what the real difference between 9 and 45 is for me. When shooting the 9mm guns I have been very consciously working on my grip. It does not seem intuitive, but the 45s seem a littler more forgiving of a less than perfect grip, except when it comes to the matter of follow-up shots. But your suggestion may be correct -- I may be subconsciously applying a firmer grip when shooting the 45s because I know they have more recoil impulse. Maybe also because I've shot 45s so much over the last several decades?

    So far I am shooting the Gen 5 with no back strap. I get good hits easier with the Gen 3 G34 than the Gen 3 G17, which of course begs the question -- why is it so hard for me to shoot the Gen 3 G17 well? It is tempting to trade the Gen 3 G17 for another Gen 5 G17 -- but then I think maybe I should seriously look at the G34 as my main 9mm to focus on. Part of the decision there will come after I carry each several times to get a better understanding of which length will be easier to live with while carrying.

    And I am very likely over thinking it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    Yeah I am trying to put my finger on what the real difference between 9 and 45 is for me. When shooting the 9mm guns I have been very consciously working on my grip. It does not seem intuitive, but the 45s seem a littler more forgiving of a less than perfect grip, except when it comes to the matter of follow-up shots. But your suggestion may be correct -- I may be subconsciously applying a firmer grip when shooting the 45s because I know they have more recoil impulse. Maybe also because I've shot 45s so much over the last several decades?

    So far I am shooting the Gen 5 with no back strap. I get good hits easier with the Gen 3 G34 than the Gen 3 G17, which of course begs the question -- why is it so hard for me to shoot the Gen 3 G17 well? It is tempting to trade the Gen 3 G17 for another Gen 5 G17 -- but then I think maybe I should seriously look at the G34 as my main 9mm to focus on. Part of the decision there will come after I carry each several times to get a better understanding of which length will be easier to live with while carrying.

    And I am very likely over thinking it.
    Trading the 17.3 for another 17.5 is probably a very good idea, since there are some upgrades and you shoot your 17.5 better than the 17.3. If you decide that the 34 will be your main gun, one 17 can serve as your dryfire and so forth gun, and the other one can serve as your spare, “just shot it enough to vet and then put it away” gun.

    Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    Yeah I am trying to put my finger on what the real difference between 9 and 45 is for me. When shooting the 9mm guns I have been very consciously working on my grip. It does not seem intuitive, but the 45s seem a littler more forgiving of a less than perfect grip, except when it comes to the matter of follow-up shots. But your suggestion may be correct -- I may be subconsciously applying a firmer grip when shooting the 45s because I know they have more recoil impulse. Maybe also because I've shot 45s so much over the last several decades?

    So far I am shooting the Gen 5 with no back strap. I get good hits easier with the Gen 3 G34 than the Gen 3 G17, which of course begs the question -- why is it so hard for me to shoot the Gen 3 G17 well? It is tempting to trade the Gen 3 G17 for another Gen 5 G17 -- but then I think maybe I should seriously look at the G34 as my main 9mm to focus on. Part of the decision there will come after I carry each several times to get a better understanding of which length will be easier to live with while carrying.

    And I am very likely over thinking it.
    If you shoot 4/5 Glocks well it could be the gun. I would have another competent shooter shoot the G17.3 and see if they get different results.

    Do all the guns have the same sights ?

    Gen 4/5 guns are generally more accurate. Earlier Gen guns tend to be more likely to benefit from aftermarket barrels.

    Unless they are blue labels, G34s come with the minus connector from the factory. Maybe try an OEM minus connector in the G17 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Consider an MR920 or DR920 and then you can get the grip angle similar to a 1911.
    That's an interesting suggestion, and the higher cost compared to Glocks wouldn't scare me away.

    But I am in the minority it seems, in that I have always liked the Glock grip angle. It seems natural to me.

    Also, if I am not mistaken the SCD will not fit the MR920/DR920 and I don't want to have to take a dremel to my SCDs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Unless they are blue labels, G34s come with the minus connector from the factory. Maybe try an OEM minus connector in the G17 ?
    Dang, thanks for that info. I may explore that option before I give up on the Gen 3 G17 unless I just get impatient and go after another Gen 5 G17 instead.

    But I confess I really like the G34. If I find I can tolerate it while seated it will be hard to rule against it.

  10. #10
    I also made the jump from the 1911 to Glocks, so I’ll help where I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    I shoot the 45s better than the 9s.
    I doubt that anyone can know how well they shoot a specific Glock pistol without testing loads. The difference in accuracy begins to show up around 15 yards and is in full bloom by the time you reach 50 yards. That said, a few loads are known for shooting well in almost everything. I’ve had excellent luck with 124- and 147-grain loads from S&B and American Eagle, and I used to buy 124-grain S&B ammo in 5,000-round lots because it shot so well in so many guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    At the end of this experimental phase I will select a pistol for carry and another for home defense use.
    Good idea, although I’m inclined to use a G19 for everything. I just put a light on it when it’s on the night stand. Speaking of which, the G19 is conspicuous by its absence on your list. Is there a reason for that?

    Finally, rather than retyping a fairly long post, I’ll quote myself from 2014:

    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I’ve spent a chunk of the last four years chasing accuracy in Glocks. I’ve posted some of what I’ve learned in various places before, not always to a warm reception. This is the first time I’ve posted it all together, so take what you can use and ignore the rest.

    To start, Glocks are plenty accurate for duty and practical shooting games. You won’t sweep Camp Perry with one, but a stock Gen3 G17 properly zeroed with good ammo should shoot a 3-4" group at 25 yards and should easily stay on an IPSC target at 100 yards. I hear that Gen4 guns like yours are somewhat more accurate, but I don’t have enough experience to say that definitively. That said, if you want a true match-grade 9mm pistol, get something else.

    ETA: The one Gen5 G19 that I’ve worked with will hang with an HK, SIG, or Beretta.

    Shooter Technique
    The best way to increase accuracy in Glock pistols is to increase your core strength, upper body strength, and grip strength. This helps you shoot everything better, not just Glocks. So does dry firing.

    From there, you have to nail the fundamentals: stance, grip, sight alignment, and trigger control. They’re all vital and they’re all covered in detail in lots of places, so I won’t go into them. But the list is not complete without follow through. Without it, you throw away everything else you’ve done, literally at the last possible split-second. Pat McNamara says that follow-through is checking your work through your sights, and that you should regain a good sight picture as soon as the shot is fired so that you always have one sight picture more than the number of shots you fired. Fire one shot, get two sight pictures. Fire two shots, get three sight pictures, and so on.

    Also, do a Google search for “the shooter’s wheel of misfortune”. It can help you diagnose issues with your grip and trigger press.

    Range Technique
    If you shoot for pure accuracy, then I feel it’s OK to abandon any pretense of realism and steal a few techniques from the bullseye world.

    First, it’s called “slow fire” not because you take a long time to fire each shot, but because of the time you take between shots. You’re not laying down suppressive fire, you’re trying to make small groups as a test of specific parts of your ability. Start by building your position, ensuring that your natural point of aim is on the X ring. When you bring the pistol up, you should break the shot in 1-3 seconds. Taking longer will actually open your groups. Fire the shot, then rest the gun on the bench (while maintaining your grip) for 5-6 seconds and let the muscles in your back and arms go slack. Then fire another shot and take another rest. Repeat until you finish the string. I know we’re all manly enough to hold up a two-pound pistol until the cows come home, but again, our goal is small groups, not proof of manliness.

    Second, if you need to shoot a ten-shot group, load two five-shot magazines. When you change them, maintain the grip with your strong hand and use your support hand to do all the work. This gives you a mental break from the concentration of precision shooting and helps ease eye strain. Take your time.

    Third, it helps to shoot from a dark place at a well-lit target. If you’re indoors, turn off the light in your booth if you can. This helps you see and align the outline of your sights more precisely. Classic bullseye ranges are essentially sheds with ample shade for the firing line while the targets stand in bright sunshine. This helps reduce eye strain and helps you shoot smaller groups. No, it’s not super-realistic, but again, we’re abandoning certain aspects of realism in search of accuracy so we can become better shooters.

    Ammo
    I tested nearly 20 different factory loads over a couple of years, and I learned that a load that groups well in one Glock may not group well in another. Test ammo by shooting several ten-shot groups with each load at 25 yards (50 yards is better), and keep notes. You may find a load that cuts your groups in half.

    Duty-grade JHP ammo tends to be more accurate than FMJ practice ammo, but that’s a low bar. Most FMJ ammo is crap, especially bulk reloads. Good FMJ ammo can be nearly as accurate as good JHP ammo in some pistols, but a lot of it will barely hold a 10” group at 25 yards. Find an FMJ load that your pistol shoots well—it may not be the most expensive one—and buy several cases of it at a time.

    Trigger
    Glocks are harder to shoot as well as some other pistols because the trigger pull is so long and heavy. Testing different combinations of springs and connectors definitely pays off. I like the OEM minus (-) connector with a stock trigger spring. Results vary, but definitely look into it.

    The 25-cent trigger job is also a big help, as it smooths and lightens the trigger pull no matter what connector and spring you prefer. If you have an issued Glock and you can’t alter it, you can get the same effect by shooting or dry-firing it several thousand cycles. The 25-cent trigger job feels about the same as a Glock that’s been fired 5-6,000 times.

    It has become fashionable to run pistols dirty and dry, but I find that a clean, well lubricated pistol is much easier to shoot well. I clean and lube my Glocks, especially the fire control parts, about every thousand rounds. You have enough problems with the Glock trigger before you start, so why complicate life by fighting months of accumulated fouling, dust, dirt, belly-button lint, etc., on every trigger press? Also, Glocks are so easy to detail strip that there’s no reason not to have a clean, properly lubricated pistol pretty much all the time.

    Sights & Zero
    Sights matter a LOT and the best choice for each of us deserves its own thread. (For a number of reasons, I prefer adjustable sights on a carry gun, the idea of which makes some people foam at the mouth.) What matters at least as much as the sights themselves but is almost completely overlooked is zero. Based on several years working on indoor ranges, I'd say that the vast majority of shooters have no idea what a zero is. Most of the rest assume that their pistols are zeroed from the factory, or that centering their sights in the dovetail is adequate. This is not the case.

    Getting windage sorted out is pretty simple: just shoot 10- or 20-shot groups and move the rear sight until you get the same number of hits left of the centerline as you have right of it. In the targets you show in your posts, most of the shots are left of center. This could be a shooter issue, but you might also be zeroed improperly.

    Then there’s elevation. As your groups shrink, you become able to make hits farther and farther away, and your zero for elevation starts to matter. No firearm comes from the factory with a good zero, but Glocks are especially bad in this respect—it can take a surprising amount of screwing around to properly zero them for elevation. I like a 25-yard zero because I can stay in the A-zone out to 50 without much change in POA, and I can stay on an IPSC target out to 100 or so by holding for the chin.

    Take the time you need to get a solid zero with good ammo and you’ll be way ahead. Again, all of this is a highly personal matter, so test sights on your own, work with some different zeros, and find what works best for you.

    Targets
    Shooting small groups on visually cluttered targets is harder than on simple targets. I find that targets meant for zeroing rifle scopes are almost useless for iron-sighted handguns. Again, it helps to take a lesson from bullseye shooters. They prefer a single black bullseye on a large (20”x20” or so) sheet of plain buff-colored paper. (The targets that you showed in your original post are actually repair centers for those full-sized targets.) If the buff-colored part of the paper appears wider than the rest of your sight picture, then you’ll only have your sights and the bull in view as you shoot, which makes shooting small groups easier. Also, the buff background strains your eyes less than a black target on a white background.



    Again, these tips will help you shoot smaller groups under very controlled circumstances. From there, you can analyze and hone individual aspects of your skill set so you can shoot smaller groups in the real world. I’ve found that each of these things will help to shrink your groups a little. None is a magic fix by itself, but when you add them all together, the cumulative improvement can be remarkable.

    Let me know if you have questions.
    That post is from this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-yds-revisited, which you may find helpful. I've also gone into excruciating detail about my work with Glocks in other posts on this forum.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

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