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Thread: Ed Harris--Revisiting the Full Charge Wadcutter

  1. #91
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Remington and Winchester factory bullets have a heavier "skirt" and will stand up to the full (standard pressure) service charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 4 grains of WC230 with normal accuracy and without blowing, as long as they are shot in revolvers having .38 Special chambers. Other brands such as Precision Delta, Star, Speer, Hornady, etc. show increased dispersion from the 6-inch accuracy test barrel if velocity exceeds about 770-800 fps, or about 3 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup, or 4.2 grains of WC230, 231 or HP38.


    The problem arises when .38 Special lead wadcutters are fired in .357-chambered revolvers, because when the hollowbased bullet leaves the 1.16" long .38 Special case and must transition with its base unsupported in the longer 1.30" length .357 chamber, the skirt inflates like a balloon and upsets to fill the longer chamber where it is unsupported, lodging in the .380" diameter behind the 15 degrees, Basic, transition into the cylinder ball seat. This causes elongation of the skirt and ductile failure while the front end of the bullet continues on down the barrel. Sometimes the skirt remains in the barrel as a bore obstruction, but it may also exit the barrel.

    When the FBI first started issuing the S&W Model 13 revolver in .357 for a short while they still used wadcutters for preliminary marksmanship instruction. The practice ended quickly when the first new agent class doing so suffered multiple bulged barrels, while the lucky ones scored up to 70 hits on a 60-shot tactical revolver course.
    I tried some Precision Delta wadcutters in a Model 60 and in my GP100 a couple years ago. Got severe leading in both guns (both chambered .357) very rapidly. I have been blaming it on the throats gauging .359 in the J frame and .3585 in the GP, causing blow-by and melting lead off the OD. Could the actual problem be the chamber length issue you describe?

    Should I even bother trying to load the box of Hornady swaged HBWCs I have for revolver use, since mine are all .357?

    I also have a 10-inch octagon Contender barrel in .38 SPL, but there's a good chance it has an unreasonably long throat, based on my reading about factory Contender barrel chambers. I haven't taken a cast yet.
    .
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    Not another dime.

  2. #92
    Wow, this thread has brought back some great memories. Curiously just this morning I loaded 93 WC bullets I've had for years as they were lubed with the old Lyman black lube, which I quit using when 50/50 alox came on the market. Yep, you guessed it, 3.5 grains of Bullseye.

    The year was 1967 and Bullseye shooting had bit me hard. I traded an Astra 600 for a S&W K-38 Masterpiece plus $10 to boot and I bought a Lyman 358432 WC mold that produced a 148 grain bullet. I made a dipper from a fired .22 LR case which measured 3 grains of Bullseye and I tried in vain to wear out my new K-38.

    Now to get back on track. A couple of years later I got a M36 Chiefs Special and upped my charge of Bullseye to 3.5 grains with the same bullet for defense loads. No chrono then but, I thought it would be better than the normal 158 grain RN load. Never had to find out, thank God! I guess I was on the cutting edge but, didn't know it all those years ago.

  3. #93
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    Factory Hollow-Based Wadcutter Bullets

    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I tried some Precision Delta wadcutters in a Model 60 and in my GP100 a couple years ago. Got severe leading in both guns (both chambered .357) very rapidly. I have been blaming it on the throats gauging .359 in the J frame and .3585 in the GP, causing blow-by and melting lead off the OD. Could the actual problem be the chamber length issue you describe?

    Should I even bother trying to load the box of Hornady swaged HBWCs I have for revolver use, since mine are all .357?

    I also have a 10-inch octagon Contender barrel in .38 SPL, but there's a good chance it has an unreasonably long throat, based on my reading about factory Contender barrel chambers. I haven't taken a cast yet.
    IIRC Precision Delta and Star bullets were very nearly pure lead and dead-soft, no more than 1-1/2% Sb, the rest lead. Winchester and Remington wadcutters besides having a heavier skirt, were typically 3% Sb, as that was the common material used for all lead revolver bullets and for .22 rimfire and most jacketed bullet cores at the time.

    I think you have multiple interacting factors, hollow cavity geometry, lack of strength and hardness in the fully worked and recrystallized structure of the soft lead, combined with chamber design, and bullet fit in the cylinder throats.

    Some of the .38 Special T/Cs had a very gradual throat, similar to the .38 AMU Colt National Match guns, having a 3 degrees Basic (the "half" angle per side) directly from the mouth of the minimum .379" chamber, with no ball seat transition. This works very well in both .38 Special and .357, eliminating the "crud ring" from firing wadcutters in the longer .357 chamber and also supports and eases engraving force during initial shot-start. I have a Green Mountain barrel so-chambered fitted to a BSA-Martini Cadet action with 10x Unertl scope I use for ammunition testing and the very best Remington wadcutters will average 1-1/2" for a long series of ten-shot groups firing in a test tube at 50 yards, and this is a .357 chamber!

  4. #94
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    Olong, do you have a Lyman M die, or an other expander which will perform the same task?

    Not everybody knows that Win and Rem use special brass to load wadcutter bullets. The difference is that the lower internal portion of the case was larger in diameter in order not to swage down the wadcutter ammo. Off brand commercial reloaders seem not to know that they are swaging down or reducing the diameter of soft swaged wc bullets when seating them. Seating cast bullets properly also requires a non standard expander like the M die.

    Try this method to avoid leading with the Hornady wc's mentioned. Use cases fired in the revolver that you will shoot this ammo in. Don't full length resize cases. Instead resize the 1st 1/3 of the case. After loading the bullet and making a completed round, try it in the cylinder's chambers. If it fits, load 50 and test fire. I think you will
    have solved the leading issue.

  5. #95
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    I have always preferred having dedicated 38 & 44 Special revolvers to shoot those cartridges and dedicated Magnum revolvers to shoot Magnums. For years (like 50 + -) I've been told I was foolish, that there is no loss of accuracy or performance with Magnum chambers in your cylinder, and then there's all that versatility.

    A number of posts here seem to indicate that I might have been on to something. And yes, there have been other 'voices crying in the wilderness' who've also preached 'Special guns for Special cartridges'. We tend to get drowned out by the clamoring of the versatility crowd. (smiley face goes here)

    Dave

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Amen, +10, etc., etc.

    Q: Did the factory full charge wadcutters use hollow base bullets like the midrange load? Your account sure makes it sound that way.

    We are so often warned against increasing the load on a HBWC for fear of "blowing through" and "leaving a lead tube in the barrel."

    1939 Stoegers shows some .38 Special wadcutter loads we no longer get.
    Remington
    Sharp Shoulder Bullet 146 gr 760 fps. Regular midrange wadcutter, most likely, but also
    Target 50 yards a 130 at 750! Nose shape not stated.

    Peters
    Service Wadcutter, a 158 at 860
    Target Wadcutter, a 147 at 760

    Winchester
    Midrange Sharp Corner, a 148 at 750, the current formula from everybody.

    Western
    The catalog has a price list but not a ballistics chart for Western handgun ammo.
    I happen to have a box of Western “mid range” wadcutters ....

  7. #97
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    Factory Hollow based Wadcutters

    When the factories load wadcutter ammunition a deep cannelure at the approximate midpoint of the case body, positions the bullets, which drop into the cases of their own weight. Mashing a dead soft HB bullet into a tight case mouth deform the base of the bullet and impairs accuracy. The flush - seated bullet is separately crimped and the case body wall profiled in the same manner as achieved by the Redding Profile crimp die.

    If you use as-cast and unsized bullets of .360-.361" diameter, they can be started into unsized, primed and charged cases, seated to depth only and then profile crimped in the same manner. The bullet will be sized by compression inside the case. Final bullet diameter is determined by case body wall thickness. Using factory wadcutter brass or new Starline of 0.010" typical body wall thickness diameter of the same bullet you tap out with your inertia puller to measure will be .358 to .3585". Modern "service" load brass of heavier wall thickness, as needed to obtain necessary bullet pull for jacketed bullets will be .357" and probably undersized for most revolvers, bit will shoot OK in the S&W 52 with tighter groove diameter.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I tried some Precision Delta wadcutters in a Model 60 and in my GP100 a couple years ago. Got severe leading in both guns (both chambered .357) very rapidly. I have been blaming it on the throats gauging .359 in the J frame and .3585 in the GP, causing blow-by and melting lead off the OD. Could the actual problem be the chamber length issue you describe?

    Should I even bother trying to load the box of Hornady swaged HBWCs I have for revolver use, since mine are all .357?

    I also have a 10-inch octagon Contender barrel in .38 SPL, but there's a good chance it has an unreasonably long throat, based on my reading about factory Contender barrel chambers. I haven't taken a cast yet.
    Couldn’t you just load those in .357 brass to avoid the chamber freebore?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    Couldn’t you just load those in .357 brass to avoid the chamber freebore?
    Poorer ballistic uniformity with excessive free airspace in .357 case, at lowered loading density greater velocity variation due to powder position.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Poorer ballistic uniformity with excessive free airspace in .357 case, at lowered loading density greater velocity variation due to powder position.
    Would switching to a bulkier powder like Unique address that?


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