Ed Harris--Revisiting the Full Charge Wadcutter

[Outpost75]

The "full charge" wadcutter was first loaded by Winchester Repeating Arms at its New Haven, CT facility, using the old WW2-style "plate loaders" in which powder charges were determined by volume obtained through stacking perforated shims over 100-hole non-sparking brass plates, which were filled by passing through a trough of powder, then sealed with sheet metal covers retained by spring clips, stacking multiple plates in wooden trays which were carried to the loading machine. Powder was dispensed from the trays into racks of primed cases by sliding the bottom cover plate from the tray, much like using a cut-film holder in an old Speed Graphic camera.

Eastern police departments, NYPD, Boston, MPDC, Baltimore and others wanted training and practice loads which better approximated the recoil of the standard 158-grain lead, roundnosed service loads used at the time. Winchester simply substituted a "full charge" plates metering the normal charge for a 158-grain LRN bullet, instead of the lighter charge normally used in assembling the midrange, target wadcutters.

So, traditionally the "full charge" wadcutter had the equivalent of 3.5 grains of Bullseye, vs. 2.7 grains for the wadcutter. Remington-Bridgeport developed a similar round for contract bidding purposes

Jim Cirillo of the NYPD Stakeout Unit made the load famous. He knew it was more effective than the LRN load, so carried it on the jop. The practice wasn't strictly Kosher, but when grilled after a shooting of a liquor store robber, he quipped, "Honest to God, Commissioner, we'd just come from the range and that was the only ammo we had!..."

And the rest is history.

[Outpost75]

....

Also, with any wadcutter, you have to remember that your maximum effective range is about 65 yards. After that, they tumble.

Okie John

Ain't always so. It is very true, that in the 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels firing light target loads gyroscopic stability fails rapidly beyond about 50 yards. Full charge loads with fast-twist barrels push the practical limits farther. The current issue of The Fouling Shot, published by the Cast Bullet Association, features an update by Bill Duncan of Coffman Cove, Alaska, which depicts photos of quite satisfactory 100-yard groups firing cast hollow-based wadcutters from a ten-inch twist custom PPC revolver with scope. In published earlier experiments he could keep most hits on an "E" silhouette at 200 yards using an aiming point elevated above the target on a pole, dropping rounds in with "plunging" fire. The bullet impacts did not show any keyholing. Key is using a faster twist barrel and "full charge" loads exhibiting exceptional ballistic uniformity so that velocity variations do not adversely impact vertical dispersion.

[okie john]

Ain't always so. It is very true, that in the 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels firing light target loads gyroscopic stability fails rapidly beyond about 50 yards. Full charge loads with fast-twist barrels push the practical limits farther. The current issue of The Fouling Shot, published by the Cast Bullet Association, features an update by Bill Duncan of Coffman Cove, Alaska, which depicts photos of quite satisfactory 100-yard groups firing cast hollow-based wadcutters from a ten-inch twist custom PPC revolver with scope. In published earlier experiments he could keep most hits on an "E" silhouette at 200 yards using an aiming point elevated above the target on a pole, dropping rounds in with "plunging" fire. The bullet impacts did not show any keyholing. Key is using a faster twist barrel and "full charge" loads exhibiting exceptional ballistic uniformity so that velocity variations do not adversely impact vertical dispersion.

I stand corrected.

My experience with 0.357" wadcutters at distances beyond 50 yards has been exclusively with S&W revolvers. Seems like twist rate has been the culprit and not bullet design...


Okie John

[OlongJohnson]

Haven't measured them, but it seems like DEWCs should be shorter overall than HBWCs, so should have marginally better gyroscopic stability. Does that difference pan out in practice?

[Outpost75]

Haven't measured them, but it seems like DEWCs should be shorter overall than HBWCs, so should have marginally better gyroscopic stability. Does that difference pan out in practice?

My Saeco #348 DEWCs are shorter OAL than Remington factory HBWCs. I've sent some of my bullets to Bill Duncan to test.

Another factor is that stable flight might be influenced by the nose shape effects upon drag of the subsonic bullet.

Bill wants to test my double-end, bevel-based and flat-faced wadcutter against a "button-nosed" wadcutter like the H&G No.50

I'm also trying to find a graduate student to do some computer modelling using finite element analysis to predict the onset of dynamic instability in subsonic, flat-faced right-cylinders vs. a beveled canister with dome-shaped nose. There have been studies of re-entry vehicles, but those are of very much higher velocity.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Brother Ed,

I can't tell you how great it is to see you here! Your very deep and broad base of knowledge on firearms and ammunition performance and manufacturing are going to be extremely valuable here.

[Jim Watson]

Amen, +10, etc., etc.

Q: Did the factory full charge wadcutters use hollow base bullets like the midrange load? Your account sure makes it sound that way.

We are so often warned against increasing the load on a HBWC for fear of "blowing through" and "leaving a lead tube in the barrel."

1939 Stoegers shows some .38 Special wadcutter loads we no longer get.
Remington
Sharp Shoulder Bullet 146 gr 760 fps. Regular midrange wadcutter, most likely, but also
Target 50 yards a 130 at 750! Nose shape not stated.

Peters
Service Wadcutter, a 158 at 860
Target Wadcutter, a 147 at 760

Winchester
Midrange Sharp Corner, a 148 at 750, the current formula from everybody.

Western
The catalog has a price list but not a ballistics chart for Western handgun ammo.

[revchuck38]

I stand corrected.

My experience with 0.357" wadcutters at distances beyond 50 yards has been exclusively with S&W revolvers. Seems like twist rate has been the culprit and not bullet design...


Okie John

IIRC, one of the advantages of the Python during PPC's heyday was the 1-14" twist of the Colt barrels. I remember seeing 1-10" twist custom barrels being offered for S&Ws, I think from Gil Hebard.

[WDR]

Q: Did the factory full charge wadcutters use hollow base bullets like the midrange load? Your account sure makes it sound that way.

We are so often warned against increasing the load on a HBWC for fear of "blowing through" and "leaving a lead tube in the barrel."

I'd be curious to hear the answer to that too.

I think the slight hollow base of some of the swaged SWC/SWC-HP bullets isn't nearly as deep as the one found in most swaged 148 HBWC. I'm sure there is more than one design for them. The Precision Delta HBWC I've used seem pretty thin on the skirt. Hornady and Speer bullets look a little different to my eye, but it's been a while.

A while back, at the beginning of the 'rona panic, I bought some ACME coated DEWC bullets to make up some "full charge" type loads... they shot okay, but the coating seems flaky, and I was hoping to find something with a bit better coating on it when everything gun related went bonkers, and gave up the project. My ideal wadcutter shaped .38/357 bullet would have a slight cup to the nose like the Precision Delta bullets, with a more solid base, maybe even eliminating the hollow base all together, and be coated to reduce lead exposure in loading, and in carrying. Some of the Woodleigh rifle bullet solids have a cup shape on the nose, which supposedly helps keep them tracking straight, and increasing penetration. I think that'd be a good thing to have with a .38 as well.

[Outpost75]

Amen, +10, etc., etc.

Q: Did the factory full charge wadcutters use hollow base bullets like the midrange load? Your account sure makes it sound that way.

We are so often warned against increasing the load on a HBWC for fear of "blowing through" and "leaving a lead tube in the barrel..."

Remington and Winchester factory bullets have a heavier "skirt" and will stand up to the full (standard pressure) service charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 4 grains of WC230 with normal accuracy and without blowing, as long as they are shot in revolvers having .38 Special chambers. Other brands such as Precision Delta, Star, Speer, Hornady, etc. show increased dispersion from the 6-inch accuracy test barrel if velocity exceeds about 770-800 fps, or about 3 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup, or 4.2 grains of WC230, 231 or HP38.


The problem arises when .38 Special lead wadcutters are fired in .357-chambered revolvers, because when the hollowbased bullet leaves the 1.16" long .38 Special case and must transition with its base unsupported in the longer 1.30" length .357 chamber, the skirt inflates like a balloon and upsets to fill the longer chamber where it is unsupported, lodging in the .380" diameter behind the 15 degrees, Basic, transition into the cylinder ball seat. This causes elongation of the skirt and ductile failure while the front end of the bullet continues on down the barrel. Sometimes the skirt remains in the barrel as a bore obstruction, but it may also exit the barrel.

When the FBI first started issuing the S&W Model 13 revolver in .357 for a short while they still used wadcutters for preliminary marksmanship instruction. The practice ended quickly when the first new agent class doing so suffered multiple bulged barrels, while the lucky ones scored up to 70 hits on a 60-shot tactical revolver course.