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Thread: Ed Harris--Revisiting the Full Charge Wadcutter

  1. #31
    Try looking at Lymans 357 mag wadcutter data. Formidable! The old data was developed before the 357 was neutered because it was hard on guns that weren't designed for it. J&K frames come to mind, plus revolvers from metalurgically unsophisticated overseas manufacturers. Full charge means that it is not reduced velocity "target" ammo, and that data was developed for use with solid wadcutters, not the much more fragile hollowbase target bullet. Ed's solid 38 wadcutter data should be considered "+P", and used with the same considerations. Alliant shows 3.9 gr of Bullseye as a +P load with a Speer swaged SWC.

    I now regret sharing this information. I would not have done it if I had any idea that it would be used for attacks against Ed Harris, who I hold in high esteem. I would delete it but it doesn't appear to be possible.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 358156hp View Post
    I now regret sharing this information. I would not have done it if I had any idea that it would be used for attacks against Ed Harris, who I hold in high esteem. I would delete it but it doesn't appear to be possible.
    Who is attacking Harris? I hope people who have started reloading in the last several years read it and more. Losing accumulated decades of loading experience would not be a good thing.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  3. #33
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Were you loading in the 1980s? Because Lyman data for Bullseye from that era did not show 3.5gr as the max. To me, "full charge" is an obsolete term for data we wouldn't use today.
    Hate to say it but I kinda like the term "full charge". Especially for the .38 and .357. 10mm too I guess.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    No, truth doesn't change. We just get better information. "The best we knew in 1969" is still "the best we knew in 1969" just like it was then. But we have better measuring equipment, so we know better now.

    Maybe my point is that it's best to take the approach of, "This is the best we know now," rather than, "This is The Truth!"
    The question of "truth" is philosophical. My belief is that there are no absolute truths other than those we might define in a math equation. But I never argue this point. Eventually, other people bring concepts like goodness and mercy and God and Salvation into these discussions.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by 358156hp View Post
    I now regret sharing this information. I would not have done it if I had any idea that it would be used for attacks against Ed Harris, who I hold in high esteem. I would delete it but it doesn't appear to be possible.
    That's unfortunate. I missed the attacks on Ed Harris, but you've provided information that many of us find useful. Others have helped clarify the content of the original article. Taken together, this thread puts that information into clearer context for newer shooters and those who may not be fully aware of the fine work Mr. Harris has done. Even more important, it has re-surfaced the idea that load data evolves over time for very good reasons, which a lot of folks tend to overlook.

    Honestly, I think that we're all good here.

    Besides, if you really want to see a food fight over 38 Special ballistics, then see the threads on "The Load" from the Speer #8 manual on the S&W forums.


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  6. #36
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    As was mentioned, full charge was a relative term, the mid range wadcutters were somewhat lighter loads than common service loads. there used to be Police match loads of 158 gr RN lead, presumably made to tighter tolerances for match shooting, and I believe there also used to be wadcutters that werent mid range, meaning...full charge, standard velocity range instead of the reduced mid range velocity.

    In the older Shooters Bible annual books they had info on available guns of all sorts, as well as available ammo, and they had drawn images of the cartridges. In the 50s and 60s there were wadcutters that had more of the bullet out of the case, the molds were different, the Lyman Ideal 358432 mold was that type.. It was common before flush seated and soft swaged hollow base wadcutters became common, and the cases used for them were slightly different inside by most accounts, flush seated wadcutter cases have 2 cannelures. The taper inside the case starts lower down so it doesnt distort the deep seated wadcutters bases.

    Lyman-Ideal 358432 mold. It has 2 grease grooves and a beveled crimp groove with a fair amount of the nose sticking out of the case. They were made in 148 and 160 gr, the molds werent always marked as to weight, even though they had the same number.

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    I read most of this a day or so ago and am just catching up and posting...apologies if I missed any of this being mentioned previously.

    Someone recently mentioned, in this discussion or another, that RN and SWC loads had similar wound channels in some medium, or in deceased subjects. After shooting a fair amount of game with various loads, I have very little positive to say about RN bullet terminal effects, but Im pretty impressed with good SWC loads and the huge difference in effect on game compared to RN loads. Wadcutters are good bullets up close, but SWC loads work very well (accuracy and effect) to rather extended ranges and are a pretty good general purpose bullet type. The critters ive shot with SWC bullets were bruised and bloodshot around the bullet hole, RN holes were pretty clean, none of the bruising and bloodshot effect, nor the effect of the animal getting smacked hard on impact. The shape of the forward edge of the particular SWC bullet may have some bearing on overall effect, whether its sharp edged or not, but I still feel any flat point bullet is an improvement over any RN tip.
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  7. #37
    Member jtcarm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Were you loading in the 1980s? Because Lyman data for Bullseye from that era did not show 3.5gr as the max. To me, "full charge" is an obsolete term for data we wouldn't use today.
    IDK what Lyman data you’re referencing, but 46th edition (1982) lists 4.1 as the max for Bullseye with the 358495 wadcutter. That is a solid-base bullet.

    I first read that article by Ed Harris years ago. The term “full charge” seemed obvious to me then and now: a step up from match wadcutter to service level performance, but not +P.

    The age-old standard load for .38 special match ammo is 2.7 grains of Bullseye behind a 148 grain wadcutter. Shoot a cylinder of those followed by a cylinder of standard pressure 158-grain defense loads and it becomes obvious the target wadcutter round is considerably less than a full charge.

  8. #38
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    My advice on wadcutter .38 ammo for defense is buy a couple boxes of factory ammo, check the rounds for visible abnormalities, and then forget about it. You now have good ammo. I have hammered possums, coons, squirrels, rabbits, chicken killing dogs, and a few other things with .38 Spl ammo. Despite the load, when the animal was dog size, this practice was not humane. I concluded that that extra velocity obtained by loading higher pressure ammo did not make much difference. Today I develop .38 Spl loads to achieve extreme accuracy. I do have some warm ones in this category. However, I no longer use them. Instead I carry a 6 inch .357 if killing a bigger animal might be my goal. But if that's the agenda, usually I now invite a 13 year old that I mentor and make him carry my 45-70 rifle. Then I let him shoot.

  9. #39
    Site Supporter jandbj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    If you're interested in buying the same wadcutter used by Double Tap and Buffalo Bore for their .38 Special loads, you can buy it here:

    http://snscasting.com/38-357-148-gra...-coated-500ct/

    I've shot several thousand of them over 3.5 grains of Bullseye for a full power WC load. Simply excellent.

    Also, look at these articles by one of the most experienced guys in the industry:

    http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...FBI%20Load.htm

    http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...adcutterQA.htm

    Found this quote over in the ammunition forum... very relevant here.

  10. #40
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    "Full charge" means standard pressure, not mid-range target pressures and not +P. As for 3.5 grains of Bullseye, that is the original factory load with the 158 RNL. Ed has pressure tested the load and verified it's not over standard (~17K) pressure for .38 Special. I've also found it has become my go to load on all lead or coated lead bullets above 140 grains and up to 160ish grains. Shoots to the sights and will make full penetration on quite a few mammalian "shootees".
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