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Thread: what is it with simple looking, expensive "defensive" knifes

  1. #11
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Cost for all 3 these is about equal to my carry gun and holster.

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Here's the perspective of someone who's being collecting and dealing with edged weapons for over forty years: as a knife, in any task a knife might need to perform in any defensive scenario, pick your choice of the cheap kitchen knives in the store and it will serve just as well.

    There are things you may be paying for: originality of design, market demand, materials, the makers time and research, as well as their name. Very little of it ever tangibly translates into the actual worth of the materials and processes involved.

    I know a particular swordsmith who's widely acknowledged as one of the modern masters of the craft. It took him a while to get a handle on pricing and perception. He had one particular piece he displayed at shows that didn't get much traction. It was a nice piece and he'd priced it fairly, but collectors would pick it up, admire it, then look at the price and walk on. The obvious thinking was, "something that cheap has to have something wrong with it" Eventually, he doubled the price and it sold at the next show to one of the very same collectors who'd previously passed. Perception is a strange thing.

    I know another swordsmith in the same stratum. I first met him twenty years ago, at that time I bought a sword from him that, to this day, remains the centerpiece of my collection. I was lucky in that regard. Back then, he had only been practicing the craft for about four years. This was also the early days of the internet, so exposure happened more by word of mouth and a few trade publications. He was just entering the, "Who is this guy?" phase of his career. I paid what was then a large sum of money for that sword. Today, he's one of the highest profile guys in the craft and the value of that sword has more than tripled. I recently bought a dagger he made for another collector about ten years ago. I paid as much for it as I did the sword twenty years past. Today, I could sell both for whatever I asked and I'd have them sold in less than twenty four hours. Come to think of it, they're both in my avatar.

    Today, both of these men can make whatever they want, charge whatever they want and they'll get it. The demand for their work is that strong and they have a sense of cache associated with their names that people want to live vicariously through. Personally, if I ever again acquire a piece from either of them it will be on the secondary market. Their pricing has risen far above my own comfort zone and I just can't see the sense in spending that much for something so unnecessary, from a modern sense. When dealing with so many intangible things asking, "Is it worth it?" is useless. The better question is, "Is it worth it to me?"

    Perception+Demand+Supply=Worth.

    I carry a $35 pocket knife.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by javemtr View Post
    Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?
    EDIT: I belated realized that @javemtr was referring to the Amtac version of the Northman, not the original version made by Northman. And yes, the country of origin is conspicuously absent from Amtac's website.

    I suspect the cost is high on some of these blades because they are associated with members and former members of Tier 1 units.

    I'll stick with Benchmade, Spyerco, and the like.
    Last edited by Mark D; 04-29-2021 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Norville's Avatar
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    There is a lot of hype in the knife world surrounding provenance and real deal design and usage experience. Most of it is an excuse to charge more. Some of the expensive boutique made in China models are interesting, but no way are they worth the full price to me. Not when you can source an equivalent, custom made piece for far less.

    High end material that requires more grinding and heat treat, custom grinds and handwork justify higher prices where mass production, even in limited runs in an automated factory does not in my opinion.

    We are not talking high tech intellectual property here, it’s one off man’s oldest tools. And employment doesn’t require a doctorate in some mysterious art. To quote @SouthNarc, “monkey with a screwdriver “ works pretty well.


  5. #15
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    @JohnO

    The professionals enter the drawing, purchase the knife and then turn around and sell it for hundreds of dollars more than they paid while hovering around the maker's table. It's like blood in the water around sharks. Been that way since I can remember. Of course, those who revere the knives can get one at the maker's price, which is a bargain compared to the aftermarket.

    I won at the Tony Bose drawing once and traded for another Bose I wanted. I've since sold the only two I had for several years.
    After we got bored at the Show we all went to the Carnegie Deli and I was told, I screwed up! One of the guys we met at the Deli and has since become a friend told me I should have purchased the knife. Then immediately walked off to the side of the room and said, Custom Emerson For Sale to highest bidder and start at my purchase price Plus $500. I never regretted how it panned out.

    The same guy while we were in the Deli pulled a rolled up brown paper lunch bag out of his pocket. He said, "Look what I got". He was obviously very pleased with what he had and very proud in displaying this recent acquisition. He took the rubber band off the bag, unrolled and pulled out what looked like two slabs of petrified dog turds. Trying to be polite I asked, "What is it"? He told me Mastodon Ivory. Boy he was tickled pink! To each their own. He was headed back to the Show and he was delivering the Ivory to a knife maker with whom he had commissioned a knife and the Ivory was for the handle.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by javemtr View Post
    While the blades you listed are all excellent, some of the prices are not reasonable. Some blades/makers are trending with certain groups and those people are willing to snatch up all the available stock and pay outrageous prices to get their hands on those knives. Ultimately, I don't think you can blame any of the makers, people will pay what they think is reasonable for them.

    The Shivworks production Clinch Pick is not a good comparison in this regard, because this knife is specifically designed as a low cost, mass produced self defense knife and openly marketed as such. So it is not trying to be something it is not. Craig is selling these at a reasonable price for what they are. Now let's take a look at the fancy Ban Tang Knives version of the Clinch Pick. It is made in the USA by a custom knifemaker in CPM-3V steel and a fantastic edge grind. Does that make it worth $340 to you compared to the standard production model? That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I personally would consider the Ban Tang version to be reasonably priced as well.

    Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?
    It's made in China. Bill Rapier can come here and prove me wrong. I'm sure someone here that took one of his classes will forward this to him.

    ------

    I'll add that the toughness and superior edge retention of M390 steel probably isn't necessary on a defensive blade - which is probably a good thing since there are indications that some Chinese "M390" blades aren't actually made of M390. Bark River, CRKT and even Spyderco have had problems with Chinese suppliers switching steels on them.
    Last edited by BigD; 04-29-2021 at 03:28 PM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Norville View Post

    We are not talking high tech intellectual property here, it’s one off man’s oldest tools. And employment doesn’t require a doctorate in some mysterious art SAYOC. To quote @SouthNarc, “monkey with a screwdriver “ works pretty well.

    Fixed that for you.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by javemtr View Post
    Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?
    The Northman appears to be heavily influenced by the Cold Steel Mini Culloden and Spyderco Fish Hunter. Both of those blades were favorites of a certain NSW command. The sheath and clip are an evolution of what Tracker Dan designed a decade ago. The "tribe" has been messing around with that finger hook style grip for a while and you'll find variations of it on other "tribe" blades such as the RAT and Dynamis offerings.

  9. #19
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    Pardon a slight thread drift...

    After attending EWO, I tend to think the "monkey with a screw driver" approach is probably damn effective. So I've often wondered why some legit face-shooters, of the highest caliber, are so enamored of the FMA.

  10. #20
    Member Phaedrus's Avatar
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    Pricing can be a fraught issue, especially with knives. I do a little sharpening on the side, mainly Japanese kitchen knives on water stones as a rule. Most of my EDC blades are under $150 with a Spyderco Delica in HAP40 being my main squeeze. I'm an avid bushcrafter and camper, and my woods blades are generally $30 to $200, with a couple of customs that were more. Honestly I usually have a cheap Mora, a folder in my pocket a maybe an $80 Terava Skrama if I'm planning to process a fair amount of wood.

    That said I'm a chef and I'll confess that my most expensive gyuto was north of $900 and is the centerpiece of my collection. It's a work of art that actually works! Yet I'd never try to suggest that it's a rational investment even for a guy that spends 50+ hours a week with a blade. It's just an objet d'art that I just had to have. IME there's a sweet spot towards the middle where you get a maximal blend of utility and price. For a kitchen knife (Western cuisine, natch) that's in the $200-$350 range. Two hundred gets you a lot more performance than $100 but the law of diminishing returns kicks in fast around $400.

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