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Thread: what is it with simple looking, expensive "defensive" knifes

  1. #1
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    what is it with simple looking, expensive "defensive" knifes

    Hi! Sorry, if this is considered blasphemy here, but looking at fixed blade options, what are the advantages of Tracker Dan, Northman blades, etc. to say a 100,- USD Shivworks clinch pick? While I gladly pay for the thinking that went into the clinch pick design, these short defensive blades don't look awfully complicated to design or make, more like somebody would put out on his first venture into knifemaking, some even more like a simple, guardless shiv made in prison. Is it the semi-custom vs. production thing? Is it the steel? Or is it just the newest fad I don't get?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    While the blades you listed are all excellent, some of the prices are not reasonable. Some blades/makers are trending with certain groups and those people are willing to snatch up all the available stock and pay outrageous prices to get their hands on those knives. Ultimately, I don't think you can blame any of the makers, people will pay what they think is reasonable for them.

    The Shivworks production Clinch Pick is not a good comparison in this regard, because this knife is specifically designed as a low cost, mass produced self defense knife and openly marketed as such. So it is not trying to be something it is not. Craig is selling these at a reasonable price for what they are. Now let's take a look at the fancy Ban Tang Knives version of the Clinch Pick. It is made in the USA by a custom knifemaker in CPM-3V steel and a fantastic edge grind. Does that make it worth $340 to you compared to the standard production model? That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I personally would consider the Ban Tang version to be reasonably priced as well.

    Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    I’ve been window shopping for knives myself recently. Granted, I know little about them compared to what I know about guns, but I’ve run into a similar issue with price. My tentative solution is that if all the production knives that fit my criteria are going to be around $200 and up, then I might as well get a custom made knife instead for a similar price.

    Also, perhaps relevant to you, my understanding is that Zulu Bravo is starting to offer a “basic” line that are, well, basic versions of his blades that run right around $200. I’d definitely go for one of those over a production knife of similar price, especially since his will come with a top quality sheath, and if the trainer and its sheath aren’t included it’s probably about $40 to add them.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    I don't mind buying a China Pick or PD because Craig is open about where they're made and why he went that route. I also think the price he charges is reasonable for what you get. I will not buy from a "maker" who isn't open about his knives being made in China because he's lying by omission. I also won't pay Ban Tang custom prices for Chinese production blades. My stance does not seem to be hurting these businesses.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  5. #5
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Being an educated consumer matters.

    Know what you want and why. Look at the materials, reputation of the maker, where it is made, (if that matters to you, it does to me), and how it is made.

    If it is to fill a specific niche, know your niche and why it makes sense.

    I am not an expert on blades used in the defensive arena, and I rarely carry one for that specific purpose. When I do, it's the ShivWorks push dagger. It's simple, reliable and intuitive.

    Prices are rarely the best barometer.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  6. #6
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    $1500 for a Tracker Dan knife seems excessive to me. What does that offer above a $300 Joe Watson or Ban Tang?

    There are collectables, and there are tools. I'll pay for a top quality tool. I do not collect knives. (Although my wife might beg to differ).

    How about a $300 handmade knife vs. a $100 knife made of Chinesium? Both have their place in my toolkit. If I'm flying for a trip, I'm not likely to put an irreplaceable Ban Tang or Watson in my checked baggage.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    $1500 for a Tracker Dan knife seems excessive to me. What does that offer above a $300 Joe Watson or Ban Tang?

    There are collectables, and there are tools. I'll pay for a top quality tool. I do not collect knives. (Although my wife might beg to differ).

    How about a $300 handmade knife vs. a $100 knife made of Chinesium? Both have their place in my toolkit. If I'm flying for a trip, I'm not likely to put an irreplaceable Ban Tang or Watson in my checked baggage.
    With damn few exceptions $1500 Tracker Dan blades only exist on the secondary market or when trying to win a social media auction. Get on his wait list or hit up a show.

  8. #8
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Knife guys are definitely a unique breed. A number of years ago I went to a Knife Show in NYC with some friends. It was more of something to do and a meetup of guys we know than to go to the show. I was amazed at all the young guys carrying wads of folded 100 dollar bills salivating at knives on display and just begging to purchase. Most of those guys were wearing some sort of reference to the Usual Suspects Network forum. Lots of toxic green goat emblems on display.

    One of my buddies told me to enter the raffle taking place at the Emerson tables. He had just entered. So I walked over and started filling out an entry when Ernest Emerson and his wife asked me if I knew what I was entering. I just said of course thinking, who doesn't know what a raffle is? Low and behold my entry was drawn. I spotted the bold blue ink from the Flair Pen in my pocket I used on the ticket from across the room as the ticket was being withdrawn from the jar.

    So I walk up to the table and get presented with a number of Ernest Emerson hand made custom knives I can pick from. My winning ticket gave me first pick and the right to purchase what everyone wanted, hence the previous asking by the Emersons, "do you know what you are entering". Price started somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000. Well I guess I learned my lesson that day about not assuming I knew what I was entering. I pretty much said nice knives but I'm not in the market for a $1,000 pocket knife. It was right about this time when a guy standing next to me said, "I'll give you $100 for that ticket". I gave him the ticket and walked away. I was content to just get out of my embarrassing situation. That guy came looking for me at the show and said, "A deal is a deal". He insisted I take the $100. That was cool because it paid for my lunch and show entry.

    Today I have a few utilitarian carry knives. Swiss Army of course and my favorite carry blade is a Joe Watson Magni. I have a AMTAC Northman I ordered before they were announced after training with Bill Rapier. I got the student/tribe pre-order price. The most unique thing about that knife and what appealed to me was the sheath. The sheath enables the ability to front pocket carry a quickly stealthily deployable fixed blade.

  9. #9
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    @JohnO

    The professionals enter the drawing, purchase the knife and then turn around and sell it for hundreds of dollars more than they paid while hovering around the maker's table. It's like blood in the water around sharks. Been that way since I can remember. Of course, those who revere the knives can get one at the maker's price, which is a bargain compared to the aftermarket.

    I won at the Tony Bose drawing once and traded for another Bose I wanted. I've since sold the only two I had for several years.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    I'll pay for original thought and design specificity - that's part of why I have no problem with the Clinch Pick. That's an extremely specialized knife. The egg grip, the reverse edge, the whole deal. It's all worth spending money to have. I carry one every day.

    Or the Spyderco Salt series...that makes sense to me. Obscure steel that's apparently impervious to rust in an extremely corrosive environment? I can see where my money is going.

    What I won't spend big money on is a 4" fixed drop point, or some variant of that, unless I guess I had the money to buy art; that's totally different. But as far as the knife goes, I'm sorry, if it does the same stuff as a knife I could knock together myself in an afternoon, and honestly knife performance is not particularly well-correlated with price in my experience...then no.

    At a totally basic level: a knife is a really wide, shallow wedge of a pretty cheap, commonly available material, shaped in a manner that's evolved over thousands of years to a pretty well-understood profile. I'm not giving somebody $500 for an attractive, heavy duty variant of a knife you could have found in a french peasant's kitchen at any point in the last 500 years, or for grinding an edge onto a small prybar, unless I'm straight up collecting art. Which maybe I would one day do, but not until I stop worrying that I'll have to pay for ice time for midget hockey playing kids.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

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