1911 series 70 vs 80 question

[willie]

The half cock's only purpose is to prevent the hammer from following the slide as it goes forward in case the hammer sear engagement is not adequate. I have never seen a bullseye 1911 with a hammer sear engagement that would hold if the slide were dropped on an empty chamber. Likewise I have seen numerous stock 1911's which would do the same thing. In these cases the half cock is performing.

The half cock notch will break when these pistols are dropped on the hammer. The same thing occurred with Old Model Ruger Single Action revolvers with the hammer down on the so called safety notch.

I have seen cops carrying 1911's on half cock. In every instance I convinced them that cocked and locked was a safer mode. My WW2 uncles trained me on the 1911 and forbid me to carry it with a loaded chamber. The 1911 is one of the pistols in addition to the P.38 that I grew up with. I carried both in condition 3 while fooling around in the woods.

Newer Colt 1911's have the half cock at a different location. With these the hammer position is nearer to the slide.
There are reasons that the 1911 is obsolete. I laugh at the foolish prices that many charge today to work on one. I well remember when most gunsmiths knew how to repair them in a satisfactory manner. I have sat and watched these pistols being repaired. It ain't rocket science.

[Trooper224]

Anyone can make a YouTube video.

[Ed L]

Anyone can make a YouTube video.

And sadly many of them do.

[Rmiked]

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm sear failure?

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm that the grip safety had been properly fitted, and was functioning properly?

Is the only eyewitness account that which was provided by your cousin? Trauma can cause things to be remembered in incorrect order. The mind can, later, fill in the missing details, with assumptions that can be incorrect. I am not questioning your cousin’s character or honesty, when I ask, could the shot have been fired before the pistol struck the floor?

Again, I am not questioning your cousin’s honesty, sincerity, or character. Being shot accidentally can, indeed, be very traumatic. In such cases, things can be remembered in fragments. The mind can develop mistaken assumptions, in an effort to reconstruct the details.

Rex, as I mentioned I did not inspect the pistol. And I don’t know it was modified prior to the incident. I saw his hand after the accident and it was a big family event given that his wife was there also in the garage when the pistol hit the floor and fired. His dad (my uncle) called my mother (His only sibling) as soon as it happened since we are all very close. All I know is that he dropped a loaded 1911 (45 ACP) on a concrete floor and almost got killed. The fact that it happened just got me wondering as to how that is possible which I have shared in previous notes. I have concluded that a high quality sear is probably a very good thing seeing as how in a series 70 1911 both the thumb safety and grip safety depend on the sear not failing. It seems that avoiding dropping a loaded pistol on concrete is something good to avoid. I’m still planning on getting a 1911 and likely a Dan Wesson which is series 70. I will be very focused on never dropping it while loaded on concrete. As Glock34 pointed out, a nice beaver tail will shroud the hammer very well if the pistol is cocked. I’m not sure a beaver tail can survive a drop of 5 feet on concrete though but it makes think “cocked and locked” on a loaded chamber is much better better than not cocked and no safety on a loaded chamber.

[HCM]

Rex, as I mentioned I did not inspect the pistol. And I don’t know it was modified prior to the incident. I saw his hand after the accident and it was a big family event given that his wife was there also in the garage when the pistol hit the floor and fired. His dad (my uncle) called my mother (His only sibling) as soon as it happened since we are all very close. All I know is that he dropped a loaded 1911 (45 ACP) on a concrete floor and almost got killed. The fact that it happened just got me wondering as to how that is possible which I have shared in previous notes. I have concluded that a high quality sear is probably a very good thing seeing as how in a series 70 1911 both the thumb safety and grip safety depend on the sear not failing. It seems that avoiding dropping a loaded pistol on concrete is something good to avoid. I’m still planning on getting a 1911 and likely a Dan Wesson which is series 70. I will be very focused on never dropping it while loaded on concrete. As Glock34 pointed out, a nice beaver tail will shroud the hammer very well if the pistol is cocked. I’m not sure a beaver tail can survive a drop of 5 feet on concrete though but it makes think “cocked and locked” on a loaded chamber is much better better than not cocked and no safety on a loaded chamber.

The original 1911 design know also known as Series 70 was never drop safe. The past is another country snd they did things differently there. But it’s also why the 1930s vintage Schwarz safety, now used in Kimber and S&W 1911s, and the series 80 type firing pin safeties exist..

You can minimize issues by ensuring you always have fresh firing pin springs in the gun (change them whenever you change recoil springs) and in some cases by going to lighter firing pins like the titanium FPS used in some Springfield Armory guns.

I do agree cocked and locked beast hammer down from a drop safety POV.

Nobody plans to drop guns so the “just don’t drop it” thing is not realistic. Same with falling or tripping with gun in hand. It is worth noting the hazards of trying to catch a dropped, loaded gun outweigh the ha adds of letting it drop.

[HCM]

I have never owned a 1911 but have shot them. My 1st Cousin dropped his series 70 1911 (45 ACP) in his garage on concrete floor after coming home from church. The pistol discharge vertically going thru his hand and hitting the ceiling. It passed near his head. Following surgery his hand works but has severely limited dexterity. He has countless hours of shooting and training with as a volunteer with State Law Enforcement. Anyway, I didn’t inspect the pistol but can only infer the blow to the hammer structurally failed the sear. Thereby making the hammer primary and half-cock notch irrelevant. Since the pistol fired, the half-cock notch also was unable to prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin. And as I previously discussed, the inertia from the firing pin itself would be moving away from the primer toward the hammer.

My question about all the drop testing on the muzzle is underpinned by this real world example. It seems an underlying assumption has been made ignoring the possibility of sear failure when only testing with muzzle drops. Without the sear engagement on a cocked 1911 it seems there are 3 reasons it could fire: 1.dropping on the muzzle with inertial firing which is mitigated by light firing pins, heavy firing pin springs and shorter firing pins. 2. The sear pin fails or comes out which is very unlikely and can be inspected easily when cleaning. 3. You drop it on the hammer and structurally fail the sear. If the sear breaks there is nothing left to stop the hammer.

Are 1911 drop tests performed dropping on the hammer to prove the sear will not fail due to this blow? I honestly don’t know. It seems the things I have read focus on the muzzle drop only??

With my Beretta 92, there is the firing pin block for this hammer blow example to prevent firing. And if you carried a 92 with decocker down (vs momentary spring) the plunger is not aligned with the firing pin and therefore can’t contact the firing pin no matter how hard you hit the hammer. I use my Beretta in decocker up mode relying on double action pull for safety along with firing pin block.

There is nothing wrong with relying on the DA mode of a Beretta 92 without using the manual safety function of the F model, unless gun grabs are an issue.

However, you are going to use your Beretta 92f model for anything other than recreational shooting, and you are only using the safety as a decocker I would suggest getting a G conversion kit from Beretta and converting the lever to decocker only.

During handling the slide it is possible to inadvertently activate the safety. This has occurred in actual shootings, sometimes with negative outcomes.

[Bucky]

As for the dimpled primers... You ever check the primer on a chambered 556 AR-15? It gets dimpled every single time.

True, but the primers are harder to account for this

[19852+]

True, but the primers are harder to account for this

Yes, so I have read. But I have loaded rifle primers in my 9mm reloads and all my 9mm pistols functioned just fine. I do use full power mainsprings in all my pistols. Personally I would only carry a pistol with a FP safety.
I do not believe that releasing the slide on a series 70 will cause it to fire unless it has some serious issues.

[Trooper224]

Paul Harrell is an accomplished competition shooter and apparently he shot some guy one time. None of this means he's a qualified gunsmith, or qualified to lecture on tactics. His videos should not be watched for informational purposes.

A properly functioning 1911 will NOT release the hammer when the slide is dropped. A PROPERLY FUNCTIONING 1911 WILL NOT REALEASE THE HAMMER WHEN THE SLIDE IS DROPPED. If this occurs there's mechanical failure of some kind in the hammer/sear engagement, sear spring, etc. It's a matter of mechanical failure, not design. As for possibly discharging if dropped, well, no kidding. So will every pistol designed in the same era.

The Schwartz safety system is crap. The only thing worse than a Schwartz is a Kimber with a Schwartz.

[Jim Watson]

A thumb safety that directly blocked the hammer movement would eliminate this common dependency on the sear. Of course the series 80 gets around by blocking the firing pin movement independent of the sear. A series 70 could retain the superior trigger with a direct blocking mechanism.

The Spanish Star's thumb safety rocks the hammer back off the sear and blocks it in place, a more secure condition than Colt's.
Colt and makers of copies thought it was simpler to add a firing pin obstruction than to redesign the thumb safety.
There are several sorts. The 1930s Colt/Swartz operating off the grip safety was picked up by Kimber. The Smith & Wesson S1911 firing pin obstruction has a different linkage to the grip safety. Colt Series 80 works off the trigger and is used by several other manufacturers, either by license or after the patent expired.

Anecdote Alert

There was a wounding here that was blamed on a dropped derringer but it was really a domestic dispute that went wrong and everybody was suddenly very sorry. A family member was familiar with the design of the Remington double derringer, knew it was not drop safe, and provided a plausible story.