1911 series 70 vs 80 question

[Robinson]

I also prefer the series 80 FP system to the Schwarz but AFAIK the SIG 1911s use the series 80 system as do the ParaOrdnance /Remington.

HCM, you are correct regarding the Sig FPS. My mistake.

[Cory]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert.

Once upon a time he had a dust up with @jetfire who is often abrasive but has verifiable proven performance with widely used metrics. You could say he is "peer-reviewed". Paul Harrell is not peer reviewed. He makes claims to authority, but I've never seen him back them up. That's beside the point. During this dust up, Caleb referenced Masad Ayoob. Paul said he was sure that Mas was an expert... but then implied he is wrong. Apparently he knows more than everyone ever.

So you want a Dan Wesson 1911? Okay. Permission granted. Go get one. What's the point of this thread? An unrecognized expert says they can fire when releasing the slide, and everyone here disagrees. But then we fall back on maybe he is somehow right? And drop safety?

I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

[Stephanie B]

The 1911 is one of the pistols in addition to the P.38 that I grew up with. I carried both in condition 3 while fooling around in the woods.

Other than convenience of carry, I don't get Condition 3 carry. One nominally needs two hand to make the gun ready and, with that in mind, the question posed is why not carry a rifle or shotgun.

I watched some customer in a gunshop demonstrate to his friend how to carry Condition 3 (with an empty Glock). On the third demo, he got hung up in his t-shirt and almost dropped it. The counter rat didn't even turn a hair.

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

[farscott]

Combine a pre 80 1911 with a firing pin slightly longer than spec with a firing pin spring slightly weaker than spec and you might get a big surprise if you do drop it. The early S&W 39's were not drop safe and surprised a few unfortunates. Ditto for Old Model Ruger Single Actions carried with 6 in the cylinder. My suggestion for owners of older 1911's is to use a titanium firing pin and stronger firing pin spring.

None of the S&W M39/M59 pistols are drop safe with the safety OFF. With the safety ON and a good firing pin spring, the pistol is drop safe because the safety blocked the hammer and the firing pin spring was supposed to arrest firing pin movement. There are reports of guns firing when dropped traced to weak firing pin springs. 2nd Generation guns (439, 459, 559, etc.) added the firing pin safety. 2nd and 3rd Generation guns are drop safe. None of the 1st Generation guns are drop safe.

[JohnO]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert.


I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

Dam good advice!

Well perhaps we should reveal the truth about how and when a 1911 fires when the slide is dropped. That would be when the bone brain behind the gun has their finger inside the trigger guard.

[TGS]

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

but...but...but...how?

Was Condition 3 with the 1911 different than Condition 3 of current day? Should just be a mag inserted with no manipulation of the slide, how on earth did they end up NDing?

[Rmiked]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert.

Once upon a time he had a dust up with @jetfire who is often abrasive but has verifiable proven performance with widely used metrics. You could say he is "peer-reviewed". Paul Harrell is not peer reviewed. He makes claims to authority, but I've never seen him back them up. That's beside the point. During this dust up, Caleb referenced Masad Ayoob. Paul said he was sure that Mas was an expert... but then implied he is wrong. Apparently he knows more than everyone ever.

So you want a Dan Wesson 1911? Okay. Permission granted. Go get one. What's the point of this thread? An unrecognized expert says they can fire when releasing the slide, and everyone here disagrees. But then we fall back on maybe he is somehow right? And drop safety?

I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

[Cory]

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

Cool.

If you can find a Valor I'd highly recommend it. Mine has around 1000-1300 rounds as a fun gun. They have the rounded slide top, that to me is more classic. The duty treat finish on the 2015ish models are excellent. The older ones have a "duty coat" that is more coating than actual metal treatment.

Valor was the flagship of DW for sometime. Last I heard they disappeared from production, much like the beloved Cbob. The largely empty slide with classic lines but modern touches appealled alot to me. I have a couple 92s, a 1911, and a USGI M17. The heritage (even if updated) is not lost on me.

I would avoid a stainless DW. I don't care for shiney guns much, and DW had issues with slide/frame galling in their stainless models. It was normally discovered early in the pistol's round count and I think mostly resolved now. None the less I remember it being often discussed in the 2015 timeframe I got my Valor.

Mine has worked well with Wilson 47Ds, but I'd probably get ETMs moving forward. Mine is a range toy, but if it was all I had I would carry it. I like the 92 for carry, but think DW represents a sweet spot in quality/price for 1911s.

Good luck finding one, and I hope to see it in the gallery.

[willie]

Other than convenience of carry, I don't get Condition 3 carry. One nominally needs two hand to make the gun ready and, with that in mind, the question posed is why not carry a rifle or shotgun.

I watched some customer in a gunshop demonstrate to his friend how to carry Condition 3 (with an empty Glock). On the third demo, he got hung up in his t-shirt and almost dropped it. The counter rat didn't even turn a hair.

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

I agree that if carrying for self defense only having a loaded chamber makes sense. Having heard many incidences where some troops can't operate a pistol safely, I think that a double action only revolver might be a better choice for applications where staff people are being issued a handgun. And, yes, I understand a revolver's limitations.

[HCM]

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

A properly functioning," in spec" 1911 will not fire when the slide goes forward.

Any gun with broken firing pin or a firing pin/striker stuck in the forward position could go off when the slide goes forward on a loaded round but that is a malfunction.

Similarly, intentionally installing things like weak firing pin springs and extended firing pins to mask poorly done trigger jobs and get the "sweet trigger pull" are ultimately operator error, not the fault of the 1911 design.

Nor is such stupidity limited to 1911s. If you search PF you will find a recent thread about the death of a USPSA Range Officer resulting from a dropped CZ-75 which had been modified with an extended firing pin. That is not the fault of the CZ design, rather it's the fault of the idiot who modified the gun.