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Thread: Beretta is bringing in MR73 revolvers

  1. #171
    Member Scal's Avatar
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    I reslugged the bore as well as checked BC gap and cylinder/breechface gap.

    (Consider any measurements taken into .0001 increments as an average “best fit” after several checks)

    The barrel slugged at around .3562, as checked by a good micrometer that can measure down to the ten thousandth of an inch (I am absolutely the weak link in precision here). I only got two grooves to totally engrave on the slug without some disruption from lube grooves (I had some .375 lead bullets I used as slugs) and that’s what those came out to.

    I also micced some bullets I had around, and some coated bullets that measured .3585 wouldn’t press forward through the throats with hand pressure. A Berry plated bullet micced at .3575 did go through the throats with hand pressure, but it didn’t drop through.

    The BC gap was .006” on all chambers, with about .001” inch endshake and the cylinder/breech gap was .060” on all chambers. .060” is SAAMI minimum headspace for .357. The endshake that was there is probably necessary to keep the cylinder spinning freely when the gun heats up. I have a few Smith and Wesson revolvers that I have used shims on to reduce endshake, and I have noticed that you can’t really take endshake to less than was observed with the MR73 without the gun starting to lock up after a few cylinders of ammo.
    Last edited by Scal; 05-10-2021 at 05:29 PM.

  2. #172
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    I understand that $3k is a lot for a handgun, but I see people with collections of dozens of guns (or more, sometimes much more). Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have one of a gun that's the best of its type that's ever been made than 3 or 4 pretty good guns. I understand opting form more guns over one really excellent gun, but if guns are your hobby, 3k honestly doesn't seem all that bad if the MR73 is as great as its reputation.

  3. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Bio View Post
    I understand that $3k is a lot for a handgun, but I see people with collections of dozens of guns (or more, sometimes much more). Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have one of a gun that's the best of its type that's ever been made than 3 or 4 pretty good guns. I understand opting form more guns over one really excellent gun, but if guns are your hobby, 3k honestly doesn't seem all that bad if the MR73 is as great as its reputation.
    I have several obscure collections. Some truly obscure. To further your point, as you winnow your collection, there are times where your collection might have exactly one example.

    (When it comes to guns, it's hard to rationalize that statement. It takes a lot to part with a gun.)

  4. #174
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio View Post
    3k honestly doesn't seem all that bad if the MR73 is as great as its reputation.
    From a 1911 perspective, that’s pretty middle of the road pricing. If the MR73 is to revolvers even what a Nighthawk GRP is to 1911s, then we’re already there.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  5. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    From a 1911 perspective, that’s pretty middle of the road pricing. If the MR73 is to revolvers even what a Nighthawk GRP is to 1911s, then we’re already there.
    I’d say a cut well above Nighthawk, given the entirely tool steel build of the MR73.
    #RESIST

  6. #176
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I’d say a cut well above Nighthawk, given the entirely tool steel build of the MR73.
    So, you’re saying it’s a bargain, then?

    Good enough!

    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  7. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    From a 1911 perspective, that’s pretty middle of the road pricing. If the MR73 is to revolvers even what a Nighthawk GRP is to 1911s, then we’re already there.
    I own revolvers. I like revolvers. I'm not a revolver guy. So please bear with these questions.

    Are the originals available? And at what cost?

    Do we want a Chapuis example, or is it simply a necessity to play in this sandbox?

    This is a serious series of questions. You monkeyfarmers have sucked me in to looking at these. I'm temporarily saved by the fact that I can't hit "Add to Cart" to any of the shorter-barreled examples.

    Thanks for reading this far.

  8. #178
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I’d say a cut well above Nighthawk, given the entirely tool steel build of the MR73.
    Ugh. I strongly suspect "entirely tool steel" is misinformation. I have seen "ordnance steel," "ordnance-certified alloy," and even "ordnance-certified tool steel" elsewhere, as well as discussion that the material is the same used in artillery - although without stating for what parts, as that information, as well as any details of what the actual alloy is, are considered protected (or whatever level of "non-public" applies) information. It all reads to me like people repeating stuff they don't remember quite right but sounds good and they don't understand in any case.

    I would be surprised to learn from a reliable source that the whole frame and barrel are actually made of something that would be classified as "tool steel," although we do like triggers and hammers made of appropriately selected and processed tool steel. There is extensive discussion out there about various members of the 4000-series family of chromoly steels and their uses and differences when used as gun barrels. It would seem reasonable that the MR73 barrel would be made from a very high quality barrel steel (one used for artillery barrels, even, which may be different than those used for target rifle barrels), and that the frame might be made from the same material.

    It's not 100 percent obvious that it would be optimum to make the frames and barrels out of the exact same alloy. At a first pass, special ordering one type of material from the foundry is better than ordering two, but if the forms are different (e.g., round bars for hammer forged barrels and flat plate for forging blanks or billet frames), they might be separate orders or production runs in any case. Knowing how much aluminum my former employer had to order at once (and well over a year in advance) to get the foundry to process it to the required specs, and given the estimate that Chapuis may build only about 400 MR73s per year, it seems likely that an order of steel, if it is a special-ordered production run, will fill all the production requirements for several years. Maybe more than several.

    I would bet two P-F bucks that whatever the alloy is, it's closer to what you'd see a top-quality target rifle barrel made from than it is anything classified as "tool steel."

    Another part that might be tool steel is the pivot pins. We know they are a different material than the frame, as they do not react to the bluing salts in the same way, hence the "spotted" look analogous to but far less pronounced than the steel pins in an anodized scandium S&W frame. An alloy classified as tool steel would likely be an appropriate choice for the pins, as extreme wear resistance is a desirable characteristic there, so trading some toughness (accepting greater brittleness) for additional hardness could be useful.

    Full disclosure: you stepped on a pet peeve:
    "Tool steel," like "aircraft aluminum," is a fairly general category description, kind of like "the color blue." There are a multitude of chemistries in both categories. The actual physical properties of any given chemistry depend very heavily on its manufacturing history, and the wide range of end states is applied as required to optimize the results of each part application. Advertising that something is made of "aircraft aluminum" doesn't tell someone who knows something very much at all, and probably isn't even a legitimate claim in most cases (at least to someone competent in specifying/building/inspecting aircraft).

    Quote Originally Posted by fly out View Post
    I own revolvers. I like revolvers. I'm not a revolver guy. So please bear with these questions.

    Are the originals available? And at what cost?

    Do we want a Chapuis example, or is it simply a necessity to play in this sandbox?

    This is a serious series of questions. You monkeyfarmers have sucked me in to looking at these. I'm temporarily saved by the fact that I can't hit "Add to Cart" to any of the shorter-barreled examples.

    Thanks for reading this far.
    Older production guns are around, if you are patient. Some of the cheaper ones you'll see around are police trade-ins from various sources, possibly beaten on, neglected and abused in various African countries. Some are nicely preserved. Prices will vary accordingly. There were a handful of engineering changes through the years. I'm not aware of any of them being considered "cheapening" in the way that later S&W "dash" numbers generally are. As a shooter, I'd want the leaf-type hand spring, which is the later version. I've read that Chapuis has continued using the same alloy that Manurhin used for frames and barrels. The guns are now made at least partly with CNC equipment, which obviously was not available in 1973. It is generally considered that CNC equipment, properly used, will if nothing else achieve the same (or better) precision in less time at lower cost with reduced chance of errors. CNC equipment, improperly used, can also make pallets of bad parts at the speed of a computer.

    Some people seem to be of the opinion that older guns are nicer, others report having inspected both and found more recent Chapuis guns to be the best ever made. Collecting is a different game, but I have not seen a preponderance of opinion that the best shooter will be had by getting an older gun. MR73s are not like Korths where the design has evolved through periods of significant engineering differences since the 1960s. My general expectation is that variation within the different MR73 populations is likely to exceed the variation between the averages of the different populations (except that the lower-priced "mass" imported guns with rough service histories are likely to be in the worst shape). In other words, which gun you get is likely more important than when it was made or in which factory. That is particularly true of any machine built with a great deal of hand fitting and hand finishing. A single Pierre may very well have better and worse days, and Guillaume may be more or less skilled and conscientious than Pierre, which could also vary by day.
    Last edited by OlongJohnson; 05-10-2021 at 10:16 PM.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  9. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by fly out View Post
    I own revolvers. I like revolvers. I'm not a revolver guy. So please bear with these questions.

    Are the originals available? And at what cost?

    Do we want a Chapuis example, or is it simply a necessity to play in this sandbox?

    This is a serious series of questions. You monkeyfarmers have sucked me in to looking at these. I'm temporarily saved by the fact that I can't hit "Add to Cart" to any of the shorter-barreled examples.

    Thanks for reading this far.
    Yes they are available. Bring money

    Yes you want a Chapuis example. Some experts agree there is little to no difference in quality between the Chapuis and Mulhouse guns.

    I don't currently have an MR73 but have had three. I bought a Janz and have no need for two top end .357.

    I do have an MR 38 and really like it.

    While You are looking check out the Korth. You won't be disappointed in either but if you are set on the MR73 don't hesitate it is a great revolver.

  10. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Ugh. I strongly suspect "entirely tool steel" is misinformation. I have seen "ordnance steel," "ordnance-certified alloy," and even "ordnance-certified tool steel" elsewhere, as well as discussion that the material is the same used in artillery - although without stating for what parts, as that information, as well as any details of what the actual alloy is, are considered protected (or whatever level of "non-public" applies) information. It all reads to me like people repeating stuff they don't remember quite right but sounds good and they don't understand in any case.

    I would be surprised to learn from a reliable source that the whole frame and barrel are actually made of something that would be classified as "tool steel," although we do like triggers and hammers made of appropriately selected and processed tool steel. There is extensive discussion out there about various members of the 4000-series family of chromoly steels and their uses and differences when used as gun barrels. It would seem reasonable that the MR73 barrel would be made from a very high quality barrel steel (one used for artillery barrels, even, which may be different than those used for target rifle barrels), and that the frame might be made from the same material.

    It's not 100 percent obvious that it would be optimum to make the frames and barrels out of the exact same alloy. At a first pass, special ordering one type of material from the foundry is better than ordering two, but if the forms are different (e.g., round bars for hammer forged barrels and flat plate for forging blanks or billet frames), they might be separate orders or production runs in any case. Knowing how much aluminum my former employer had to order at once (and well over a year in advance) to get the foundry to process it to the required specs, and given the estimate that Chapuis may build only about 400 MR73s per year, it seems likely that an order of steel, if it is a special-ordered production run, will fill all the production requirements for several years. Maybe more than several.

    I would bet two P-F bucks that whatever the alloy is, it's closer to what you'd see a top-quality target rifle barrel made from than it is anything classified as "tool steel."

    Another part that might be tool steel is the pivot pins. We know they are a different material than the frame, as they do not react to the bluing salts in the same way, hence the "spotted" look analogous to but far less pronounced than the steel pins in an anodized scandium S&W frame. An alloy classified as tool steel would likely be an appropriate choice for the pins, as extreme wear resistance is a desirable characteristic there, so trading some toughness (accepting greater brittleness) for additional hardness could be useful.

    Full disclosure: you stepped on a pet peeve:
    "Tool steel," like "aircraft aluminum," is a fairly general category description, kind of like "the color blue." There are a multitude of chemistries in both categories. The actual physical properties of any given chemistry depend very heavily on its manufacturing history, and the wide range of end states is applied as required to optimize the results of each part application. Advertising that something is made of "aircraft aluminum" doesn't tell someone who knows something very much at all, and probably isn't even a legitimate claim in most cases (at least to someone competent in specifying/building/inspecting aircraft).



    Older production guns are around, if you are patient. Some of the cheaper ones you'll see around are police trade-ins from various sources, possibly beaten on, neglected and abused in various African countries. Some are nicely preserved. Prices will vary accordingly. There were a handful of engineering changes through the years. I'm not aware of any of them being considered "cheapening" in the way that later S&W "dash" numbers generally are. As a shooter, I'd want the leaf-type hand spring, which is the later version. I've read that Chapuis has continued using the same alloy that Manurhin used for frames and barrels. The guns are now made at least partly with CNC equipment, which obviously was not available in 1973. It is generally considered that CNC equipment, properly used, will if nothing else achieve the same (or better) precision in less time at lower cost with reduced chance of errors. CNC equipment, improperly used, can also make pallets of bad parts at the speed of a computer.

    Some people seem to be of the opinion that older guns are nicer, others report having inspected both and found more recent Chapuis guns to be the best ever made. Collecting is a different game, but I have not seen a preponderance of opinion that the best shooter will be had by getting an older gun. MR73s are not like Korths where the design has evolved through periods of significant engineering differences since the 1960s. My general expectation is that variation within the different MR73 populations is likely to exceed the variation between the averages of the different populations (except that the lower-priced "mass" imported guns with rough service histories are likely to be in the worst shape). In other words, which gun you get is likely more important than when it was made or in which factory. That is particularly true of any machine built with a great deal of hand fitting and hand finishing. A single Pierre may very well have better and worse days, and Guillaume may be more or less skilled and conscientious than Pierre, which could also vary by day.
    Having machined vast quantities of modified AISI 4140, 4145 and 4150 and a bit of 43xx series steels on both manual and CNC equipment I suspect that the steel is along these lines at perhaps a slightly higher than typical heat treat condition. The may well use tool steel trigger hammer/sear components but again it's entirely possible that they are hardening them higher yet. The 43xx series steels are noticeably tougher than 41xx series when machining and they actually rang like a bell in heavy cuts on a 100+hp lathe at around 40RC hardness. I'm thinking that they would be a very good steel to use for an endurance application, I'm just not up to speed enough to know that they would be "MR73 durable".

    Also as you implied CNC does not equate to perfect parts at close tolerances in all cases. Skilled fitting of certain features in mechanisms as intricate as a revolver action on a level of a MR73 or Korth will always be required especially when working with these materials. I worked on a Mori Seiki jig boring machine with Leica optical scales for feedback to the control in all 3 linear AND both rotary axes, it had both heated AND chilled coolant, spindle oil and also hydraulics and a custom warm up program added by Fanuc at the factory. We purchased it in great almost unused condition from Boeing's satellite division for a song and we really had to have our stuff together to meet tolerances even with all that. We were running engine nozzle components for a ballistic missile that was to intercept incoming ballistic missiles which didn't make life easy for us! Damn, I almost miss those days. Almost...

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