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Thread: Stupid Ideas Regarding AR Rail Configurations

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Super bright lights: There is this thing, about wanting all the lumens, so you can see farther and reach out farther. I dont buy that logic in a combative rifle sense. For hunting, sure.
    Maybe you could explain this one a bit more?

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Why not? Definitely not my preferred but they were very prevalent with Rangers for a long time.


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    Because anytime youíre not in the one flat range stance that the afg fits, itís just a massive hunk of plastic that is ALWAYS in the way.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    1) All those systems are piston in some way or form, not direct impingement

    2) The fact the bore axis and how the bolt moves in line with the stock is awesome for performance. Ever see a three gunner successfully use an AK/FAL/Scar?

    3) The top of the 416 is raised like that to accommodate its piston (IIRC)

    There are legit reasons for high mounts. Most people just think it feels good without metrics or thought to back up why they are doing it.
    I am well aware of 1 and 3. The reasons that high top rail is a byproduct of a piston doesn't change the fact that it is more natural and comfortable to be less bent than more bent.

    2: Barry Dueck did pretty good with SCAR when he was FNH-sponsored. Gas ARs are more tunable and lighter than piston so they get used. I never seen a DBAL on a 3G rifle but I seen a lot of high mounts. And offset dots.
    ďWell," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  4. #14
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    OP, Lights extending out past the rail or next to the muzzle is a non issue. Super bright lights are extremely useful on rifles & pistols & as handhelds, the sun is waaaay brighter than any light will ever be and I think most of us can function just fine in the daytime (donít look directly at the big shining orb). Iíve fallen onto lights that were past the rail in the mud, put one through a partially rotten log at work with zero damage (Surefire Fury in a LaRue mount on my old M4A1) and through a vehicles side window in a class (Surefire Fury on an Arisaka Keymod ring mount attached to an original BCM KMR rail) also with no damage. If you apply a small amount of oil to the lens carbon fouling incomes right off (mainly only an issue in training, youíre probably not going to go through enough rounds in most ďrealĒ situations to foul your light much). Scorch marks and carbon build up on the body can be a thing but has never effected the functionality of any of my lights over many many thousand of rounds.

    ETA: I also prefer an Ambi-safety and see a lot of benefits in the offset dot I have on the high mounted LPVO I have...on a rifle with a very lightweight barrel.
    Last edited by TCB; 04-18-2021 at 10:46 PM.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    True

    Overly complicated slings: I think this is self explanatory

    QD sling points: These things are absolutely prone to failure. Common problems:
    1) Poor coating that is prone to corrosion. Sweat, salt water can cause these to rust, resulting in the detents to catch or bind.
    2) Poor QC resulting in slightly out of spec parts
    3) Poor material, resulting in them wearing out
    4) They usually are not marked with a name brand on them, so it can be hard to tell quality brands from not quality brands
    5) This is an additional mechanism that is susceptible to dust fouling
    6) Why? What is the reasoning for creating a point of failure on your rifle? What does a QD sling get me? The ability to break away from the gun if I fall in water? Ill buy that. Storage limitations? One sling, multiple rifles?

    There are reasons QDs are legit. However, if you dont need it, why have it?

    Things mounted forward of the rail: I use the front end of the rail as a bumper when I fall off things to try to protect everything else mounted on the rail.

    Super bright lights: There is this thing, about wanting all the lumens, so you can see farther and reach out farther. I dont buy that logic in a combative rifle sense. For hunting, sure.

    Offset red dots: The normal red dot is coming off the right hand side of the gun for a right handed shooter. This is the side of the rifle, that when slung to the front, is going to get a serious beating. You have out a part, extruding to take all that impact. I would also rather devote my time to training on the main optic than having to work multiple sighting systems. Which I think is another stupid thing.

    Eta:

    Folding stocks on guns that don't need folding stocks: If you are required for storage purposes to fold the gun. Then yes, they are cool. If you are putting a primo on reliability and durability. Throwing a hinge into the middle of the operating system, is not the way to do that. When you have to have a special plunger, to make the system work, that is not adding to the reliability and durability department. If you pay enough mind to resiliency to use back up irons, but then put a hinge in your gun. I dont understand that.

    Even on guns where the stock is not part of the operating system, folding stocks rarely seem to go well.

    High mounts: I have covered this in previous threads. IIRC Wake, you were at a JDC LVPO course where you were having undiagnosed scope shadow issues with a high mount.

    Bungee cord suppressor covers: They generally lack the friction and grab to deal with recoil so they almost always end up flying straight off or getting the end blown off.

    Ambi safeties: I grip the pistol grip high, ambi safety will almost always bury itself in my firing hand knuckle. Most guys I know, who are chasing performance, grip the gun that way.

    Worrying about weight: I like lightweight stuff. But I dont usually define things by weight. I define things by what I need them to do, then make weight savings. The amount of lightweight rifles that have excessive plastic parts not removed, excess sling taped up, excess tape used to tape the sling, all makes me laugh.

    Pencil barrels: They have yet to perform to a degree of acceptable performance on harsh firing schedules. This has been well documented.
    The above list/explanations appears to be quite personal and largely outside my experiences, both professional and as a 2-gun competition participant. I donít use suppressors or stacked/offset optics, so I wonít speak to that, but otherwise my experience has been at least situationally dependent if not outright contrary to the above.

    Things like lights and mounts- quality mounts (Arisaka, IWC, etc.) cantilevered beyond the handguard has been strong enough that any strength found mounting it closer doesnít matter. Brighter lights allow better/faster target ID and help blind bad guys (sim scenario tested as both good and bad guy). Most everyone Iíve heard spout the ďitís too bright/blinds the userĒ stuff havenít actually tried it either in scenarios or real world.

    Lightweight/pencil barrels- within realistic expectations, they work. Pencils and carbon fiber/Ti might not be the best idea for full auto M27 use, but like a bolt deer rifle vs a sniper/PRS rig, they work great for something that will be carried a lot and shot at a moderate pace. Pencils may open their group size faster than hbar, but modern ones donít shift zero, open horribly, and will be a non-issue at rates of fire under mag dump speed. Some donít like their personalities, but the InRange guys have tested this concept quite thoroughly, including torturing a polymer lower.

    Ambi-safety: Iíve found low-profile off side levers allow all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
    Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Maybe you could explain this one a bit more?
    I used the term combatively for a reason. Two opposing groups attempting to maneuver on one another. The notion of projecting light, to see hundreds of meters, or really anything outside of a building, to me is not tactically sound. There are some historic case studies, of personnel or vehicle mounted white light sources being used to extreme detriment of the users.

    I am not telling cops they are wrong. I am not telling people who go on walks at night they are wrong. I am saying from a combative standpoint, it does not make sense to me.

    I have personally been in enclosed spaces, that were filled with dust, where super bright lights were a detriment.

    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    I am well aware of 1 and 3. The reasons that high top rail is a byproduct of a piston doesn't change the fact that it is more natural and comfortable to be less bent than more bent.

    2: Barry Dueck did pretty good with SCAR when he was FNH-sponsored. Gas ARs are more tunable and lighter than piston so they get used. I never seen a DBAL on a 3G rifle but I seen a lot of high mounts. And offset dots.
    The AK and FAL are terrible to use with an optic mounted on it. Im sure he did do well. If it was a good platform, why didnt he keep using it once he left?

    A lot of stuff 3 gun shooters do is cosmetic. Spend time at big matches and you will see people forget and do the flip flop of wanting to shoot through their offset. Juice isnt worth the squeeze for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    OP, Lights extending out past the rail or next to the muzzle is a non issue. Super bright lights are extremely useful on rifles & pistols & as handhelds, the sun is waaaay brighter than any light will ever be and I think most of us can function just fine in the daytime (donít look directly at the big shining orb). Iíve fallen onto lights that were past the rail in the mud, put one through a partially rotten log at work with zero damage (Surefire Fury in a LaRue mount on my old M4A1) and through a vehicles side window in a class (Surefire Fury on an Arisaka Keymod ring mount attached to an original BCM KMR rail) also with no damage. If you apply a small amount of oil to the lens carbon fouling incomes right off (mainly only an issue in training, youíre probably not going to go through enough rounds in most ďrealĒ situations to foul your light much). Scorch marks and carbon build up on the body can be a thing but has never effected the functionality of any of my lights over many many thousand of rounds.

    ETA: I also prefer an Ambi-safety and see a lot of benefits in the offset dot I have on the high mounted LPVO I have...on a rifle with a very lightweight barrel.
    My post from another thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Walking up a rock embankment, right hand shooter, rifle slung across the front, right foot forward, left foot back. Left foot gives way, right side of rifle shears down rock embankment. Light bar gets peeled back.

    Walking through the woods, do a target transition going from left to right, rifle light impacts a small tree and bends inboard toward the barrel.

    Walking through the woods, with rifle up and hunting, fall forward, rifle is kept oriented downrange. Extended light breaks fall into tree head long. Light bar bends outboard.

    I offset anything rail mounted, behind the front/muzzle end of the rail. So in whatever conditions, when gravity takes over, I try to let the front end of the rail be the bumper, vice the potentially life supporting gear (lazer, light etc)

    Surefires are built like a brick shithouse. I have not seen one break, from something unexpected. The forward mounted light stuff runs a toll on the attachment point or the rail. Again, its a lever arm working against you. For what benefit? A little less shadow?

    Thats the same reason, I use plastic vertical foregrips and not metal ones. The plastic breaks....
    Lenses getting scorched doesn't really matter to me

    Im glad ambi safety's work for you. They dont for me. Or most everyone who I know. Or most people who shoot wearing gloves. I do not see the benefit of them.

    You mentioned the sun being out. When its dark, the sun is not out. When you turn on your light, its like the sun comes on, on you and where you are pointing it. To see, if the area you are pointing it at, has the guys you think are there, actually there. But if they are not there, they certainly know where you are now.... But I mean, there are manuals from WW2 on talking about actually fighting at night. Again. I said combatively. Yes that is a niche. Yes, not what your average person does. It is what I am relating to and speaking on.

    Quote Originally Posted by DpdG View Post
    The above list/explanations appears to be quite personal and largely outside my experiences, both professional and as a 2-gun competition participant. I donít use suppressors or stacked/offset optics, so I wonít speak to that, but otherwise my experience has been at least situationally dependent if not outright contrary to the above.

    Things like lights and mounts- quality mounts (Arisaka, IWC, etc.) cantilevered beyond the handguard has been strong enough that any strength found mounting it closer doesnít matter. Brighter lights allow better/faster target ID and help blind bad guys (sim scenario tested as both good and bad guy). Most everyone Iíve heard spout the ďitís too bright/blinds the userĒ stuff havenít actually tried it either in scenarios or real world.

    Lightweight/pencil barrels- within realistic expectations, they work. Pencils and carbon fiber/Ti might not be the best idea for full auto M27 use, but like a bolt deer rifle vs a sniper/PRS rig, they work great for something that will be carried a lot and shot at a moderate pace. Pencils may open their group size faster than hbar, but modern ones donít shift zero, open horribly, and will be a non-issue at rates of fire under mag dump speed. Some donít like their personalities, but the InRange guys have tested this concept quite thoroughly, including torturing a polymer lower.

    Ambi-safety: Iíve found low-profile off side levers allow all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.
    As mentioned earlier. There are real world/ historic case studies that speak other wise to the emission of an energy source visible to everyone....

    You do not get to determine the pace you shoot at. The performance of lightweight/pencil barrels is not a risk I will incur at the weight of a few oz.

  7. #17
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    I wear gloves and ambi safety still work great for me? Maybe Iím an outlier, I believe they are issued on many military M4 now as well, I think most of those guys wear gloves too? Iím not military and never have been so this may be out of my lane but night fighting tactics have evolved since WWII...at work when I go white light I want it bright, until then NVG or night adapted vision or a thermal is how I search. Iíve been inside a double wide with white walls and floor to ceiling mirrors at night with a 1000 lumen light and was able to not blind myself (common complaint for people who donít like bright lights) it allowed me to change the environment to my advantage. If giving up your position is a major concern light discipline is a must even low lumen lights should stay off. Iíve found that shrouded or partially covered low lumen red lights particularly handy in that situation.

    OP, sorry for the hijack...as for the initial question. Get a rail that allows for comfortable hand placement for how you shoot and allows the ergonomic placement of accessories (compromises may need to be made depending on what equipment is being employed) you may need for whatever you think youíll need to do with the rifle. Everyoneís gun will be set up slightly different because as a wise man once said...ĒMission drives the gear trainĒ.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    I wear gloves and ambi safety still work great for me? Maybe Iím an outlier, I believe they are issued on many military M4 now as well, I think most of those guys wear gloves too? Iím not military and never have been so this may be out of my lane but night fighting tactics have evolved since WWII...at work when I go white light I want it bright, until then NVG or night adapted vision or a thermal is how I search. Iíve been inside a double wide with white walls and floor to ceiling mirrors at night with a 1000 lumen light and was able to not blind myself (common complaint for people who donít like bright lights) it allowed me to change the environment to my advantage. If giving up your position is a major concern light discipline is a must even low lumen lights should stay off. Iíve found that shrouded or partially covered low lumen red lights particularly handy in that situation.

    OP, sorry for the hijack...as for the initial question. Get a rail that allows for comfortable hand placement for how you shoot and allows the ergonomic placement of accessories (compromises may need to be made depending on what equipment is being employed) you may need for whatever you think youíll need to do with the rifle. Everyoneís gun will be set up slightly different because as a wise man once said...ĒMission drives the gear trainĒ.
    I have seen them stripped off more issued guns than not. I am still not sure what an ambi safe is getting me.

    As you stated your use of night vision. Do you change how you fight with NVGs, when the other guys have NVGs?

    600ish lumens will absolutely burn your position. But 600 is way less than 1000-1500.

    Im not here telling people to do what I do. Im just saying what I disagree with. Commonly there are lots of trends of doing things, without a why behind it.

  9. #19
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    Different strokes I guess...I use what I use because it works for my mission, but I understand why others do things differently. NVG? My work gun is not set up to ďfightĒ under NVG (personal ones are but Iím fairly inexperienced in that realm) if needed I can shoot passively in a pinch, I use NVG & Thermals to locate people & navigate without lighting up to avoid detection while I close distance. My work gun has a single sided safety and it works just fine, I do prefer ambis on my personal guns though, I feel they add value for me.
    Last edited by TCB; 04-19-2021 at 02:50 PM.

  10. #20
    As with anything, mission drives gear and I think youíre talking about a different use case than many of us. Some of that sounds like you might be envisioning an exclusively AFG style environment.

    I use rifles for two things primarily- work stuff is as a midnight patrol guy and collateral duty SWAT entry team leader. Fun is 2-gun competition. The rifles I use for those two things are subsequently quite different. Work is a full auto 11.5Ē with PEQ, 1k+ lumen white light, BUIS, and true vert fore grip- total weight is around 8lbs fully dressed minus ammo. Fun is a 5lb fixed stock rifle with pencil barrel, carbon handguard, and a small hand stop with no light or buis. With the light weight barrel I absolutely control my pace of fire because itís used for the role I assembled it for.

    Regarding light- common current convention is generally to not use white light for long distance/open air stuff. Without going into specifics, there are times where nvg are perfect, and others where one might either chose to use white light, or have no other option for various reasons. In close quarters, all the lumens have been a huge advantage. Due to the confines of the environment, ďstealthĒ is largely about concealing timing, not actual location. Again, this is in the context of LE based stuff where itís usually single/low number of opponents.

    Moral of my story- just because your use case doesnít apply/you donít believe in many of the things you listed, does not make them dumb.
    Last edited by DpdG; 04-19-2021 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Add comma
    Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.

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