2012-13 PTC Test Guns - Springfield 9mm 1911

[jmjames]

But this is a one frame build, so no chance of it being the next test gun (plus, wouldn't it be nearly identical to the current test? Why yes it would).

I actually think it would be a VERY different test. The common 1911 folklore holds that the Commander length is far less reliable than 5". Add in the 9mm, and it would be interesting to see how it does.

By the by, this whole thread made me lose well over an hour of sleep last night as I found myself somehow burrowing down the rabbit hole of Detonics pistols... thanks.

J.Ja

[BLR]

I actually think it would be a VERY different test. The common 1911 folklore holds that the Commander length is far less reliable than 5". Add in the 9mm, and it would be interesting to see how it does.

By the by, this whole thread made me lose well over an hour of sleep last night as I found myself somehow burrowing down the rabbit hole of Detonics pistols... thanks.

J.Ja

That's because commander slides move too fast. Not a prob with 9mm slides.

(of course, there are other things that can show up, but that's the big one......lest us not forget the whole mag issue though).

[jmjames]

That's because commander slides move too fast. Not a prob with 9mm slides.

(of course, there are other things that can show up, but that's the big one......lest us not forget the whole mag issue though).

Ah, that makes sense. The things I had looked into last night suggested that the Commander length was originally spec'ed for 9mm too.

J.Ja

[Jim Watson]

The Commander was designed in 9mm for Army trials ca 1950. The FIRST time we agreed to go along with NATO.
It competed with the S&W M39 and M44, the High Standard T3, and the lightweight Inglis-BHP. There was also a Colt T4 because the Army wanted a DA start even back then.

The M39 was preferred for its double action, but there were still enough .45s on hand that a new sidearm could not be justified.
So Colt and S&W put their guns on the commercial market, Colt with the addition of .38 and .45; feasible since they had stayed with the 1911 mag well and most of its slide travel.

The T3 and T4 sank without a trace.

[BOSS]

I've been reading some of the older responses to this post, and overall, its definitely an informative and educational thread, and I think it provides enough founded data for people to get some real knowledge.

A few things, having reviewed some of the last 1/2 of the posts:

1. Opinions vary widely, both of the 1911, and in particular, the 9mm variant. And most seem pretty firm in their beliefs. (Shocker, I know...).
2. Mags as well all know, are key, but the 9mm versions seem to be particularly sensitive. And what works for one 9mm, may not work for another.
3. As with mags, recoil springs are also key in this particular caliber...over all, I think its just an overall power/energy issue...with .45/.38/9x23, etc. you've got more force to spare to work the slide, 9mm, the margins are smaller, along with LOA, and other factors. Also, it may take a few mags to get the spring 'broken' in. And its also true that not all 115 or 124 FMJ is equal...one batch of WWB might work, while AE or some other brand in the same configuration might not, or vice versa. Again, finicky/sensitive.
4. Some 1911's are just put together better. I've played with both 'Imbel' and 'American' (NM serial #--I'm guessing yours falls into this category) 9mm Springers, and while the NM version is a little more nicely polished/finished, and has a little nicer trigger, it took probably 1500 rds of just breaking in to where it would get through 100 rds without a malfunction. It's getting better, but the 'Imbel' gun is definitely the more reliable of the two. But side by side, there is no glaringly obvious difference in fit or components. Go figure.
5. All the tinkering is interesting for research, but is there going to be a point where you're going to settle for a configuration if it works? I mean if I had a set-up that ran for many hundreds or thousands of rounds with minimal issues between cleaning/maintenance, I'd probably be satisfied, particularly in a 1911. But again, if the idea is to tinker and experiment, definitely educational.
6. Riding the thumb safety...I think if you only shoot guns in that configuration (with manual thumb safety), that is a sound way to go. I personally do not, as I may be shooting an M&P, Glock, Sig, HK, BHP, revolver, or any other handgun at any given time, and the high thumb may not work with those platforms, so I stick with a K.I.S.S. 'low thumb' that works for me with everything. And while it might be slightly less of an 'accurate/fast' shooting grip from a physcial/musculature standpoint, I believe it also provides a stronger grip for retention, which is something I consider important. Just my $.02 worth on that issue.

So overall, great reporting, keep it up, very interesting knowledge/experience exchange.

BOSS

[BWT]

6. Riding the thumb safety...I think if you only shoot guns in that configuration (with manual thumb safety), that is a sound way to go. I personally do not, as I may be shooting an M&P, Glock, Sig, HK, BHP, revolver, or any other handgun at any given time, and the high thumb may not work with those platforms, so I stick with a K.I.S.S. 'low thumb' that works for me with everything. And while it might be slightly less of an 'accurate/fast' shooting grip from a physcial/musculature standpoint, I believe it also provides a stronger grip for retention, which is something I consider important. Just my $.02 worth on that issue.

Only problem I have with that is I'd think you could bump the safety on during a course of fire. I started using a 1911, switched to a Glock and I haven't changed my grip without issue. But, experiences vary, hands vary, shooting styles, etc.

I'm enjoying this test, as at least it's sparking a lot of discussion.

[ToddG]

5. All the tinkering is interesting for research, but is there going to be a point where you're going to settle for a configuration if it works? I mean if I had a set-up that ran for many hundreds or thousands of rounds with minimal issues between cleaning/maintenance, I'd probably be satisfied, particularly in a 1911. But again, if the idea is to tinker and experiment, definitely educational.

Sincere question: what tinkering?

The only two things I've changed have been the mag release (because I was genuinely having trouble reaching the mag button) and the recoil spring weight (because the gun was having reliability problems which seem largely resolved thanks to the heavier spring).

6. Riding the thumb safety...I think if you only shoot guns in that configuration (with manual thumb safety), that is a sound way to go.

Failure to ride the safety out of habit with a gun so equipped can lead to inadvertently activating the safety in recoil and/or failing to disengage the safety upon presentation, especially if the presentation is under some less common/practiced circumstance than a normal draw from the holster. I'm teaching a class this week for a police department with lots of 1911 shooters and have seen both of this problems in just the first two days.

[BOSS]

Sincere question: what tinkering?

The only two things I've changed have been the mag release (because I was genuinely having trouble reaching the mag button) and the recoil spring weight (because the gun was having reliability problems which seem largely resolved thanks to the heavier spring).

Sorry, should have been more specific: mostly speaking to magazines. Seems you've gone through a few.

From all we've seen:
1. You appear to have a very reliable and durable firearm.
2. 9mm 1911's/mags/recoil springs can be landlords to alotta Gremlins.
3. We're learning alot here. Part of my analytical mind wonders about this being such a condensed & well documented test. Less than 10 malfunctions in something like 18K rds? Seriously, if most folks put that many rounds through their gun in this short of time and accurately documented it, how would they stack up? Sure, there's probably many that would do as well or better, but I'm guessing most would not. I also wonder, outside of the competitive/high round shooters/trainers, doing what would account to several years worth of shooting in a few months has what effect on a pistol overall? It would be interesting in a case like this to have alot of very accurate measurements of critical stress points--slide rails, frame points, etc. for before and after comparison. But long story short, you gotta good gun there.

Failure to ride the safety out of habit with a gun so equipped can lead to inadvertently activating the safety in recoil and/or failing to disengage the safety upon presentation, especially if the presentation is under some less common/practiced circumstance than a normal draw from the holster. I'm teaching a class this week for a police department with lots of 1911 shooters and have seen both of this problems in just the first two days.

Very possibly true on both counts. But there's lots of variables--1911 type (sub-govt, alloy frame, bull barrels,etc), ammo type, hand size type/strength, experience, training routine/frequency, etc etc etc. I don't think there is one perfect answer. And high thumb can lead to failure to fully disengage the grip safety, particularly if it doesn't have the now common 'speed/memory' bump...made more problematic with smaller/leaner hands. I'd also say its situational dependent on whether or not to disengage the safety on presentation...just cuz the gun comes out doesn't mean the safey goes off. But of course, you're running a shooting course, so that's going to be the main manual of arms most of the time. And if I were solely a competitive shooter, particularly with the 1911, I might very well go to the high thumb, it is probably the superior 'speed/accuracy' grip as evidenced by all that are winning with it. But as I say, I stick with the K.I.S.S. principle based on my personal background/training/experience/situation(s). YMMV.

Great thread, rock on!!

BOSS

[DGI]

Just put a deposit on one of these bad boys and cant wait to get my hands on it. I was prepared to order a Full Rail Operator from SACS when I was informed that one of these was available and put my Custom gun on hold in order to purchase this fine firearm. I look forward to training and competing with it.

This test has been very enlightening! The Warren gun will be my first 1911 in 9mm and im hoping its softer shooting character allows my wife to start shooting and training with the 1911 platform as well. It will be interesting to compare its build quality to my other SACS pistols. Since its a 9mm, I'll be comparing its accuracy and general handling of the 9mm to my Beretta 92fs/Novaks pistol.

I was close to passing on this opportunity and going the Novaks BHP route but who knows when another Warren gun will be available.

[kmartphoto]

3. As with mags, recoil springs are also key in this particular caliber...over all, I think its just an overall power/energy issue...with .45/.38/9x23, etc. you've got more force to spare to work the slide, 9mm, the margins are smaller, along with LOA, and other factors.

Yes... but these are well known factors. That they haven't been worked out says more about makers tossing out components till something works rather than just figuring it out right from the start.

4. Some 1911's are just put together better.

yep

it took probably 1500 rds of just breaking in to where it would get through 100 rds without a malfunction.

NO

If the gun is right it will run right from the start with no need to have it somehow self adjust. A break in period is just letting the gun fix sloppy smithing.

side by side, there is no glaringly obvious difference in fit or components.

There is a diference and its important.

6. Riding the thumb safety...I think if you only shoot guns in that configuration (with manual thumb safety), that is a sound way to go. I personally do not, as I may be shooting an M&P, Glock, Sig, HK, BHP, revolver, or any other handgun at any given time, and the high thumb may not work with those platforms, so I stick with a K.I.S.S. 'low thumb' that works for me with everything. And while it might be slightly less of an 'accurate/fast' shooting grip from a physcial/musculature standpoint, I believe it also provides a stronger grip for retention, which is something I consider important. Just my $.02 worth on that issue.

The high thumb and its inherently better grip mechanics is one of the absolute top benefits of a 1911 pattern pistol. ALL pistols should have it on both sides whether they have a safety or not. regardless of grip style of pistol that is the best place for your thumb period.

I agree with Todd that other guns that have a thumb safety don't get it right like it is on the 1911. But every gun could benefit from that thumb shelf.