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Thread: Just When I Started Carrying a Semiauto Pistol, I Saw This..

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    I think it was Claude Werner that made an assertion that malfunctions in real world events were far more common than in classes/training.
    I believe this to be true 100%, makes perfect sense considering the relative peace and sterility of shooting at a range compared to the extremely chaotic and messy real world events that precede the malfunctions we find so often on these videos.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Lack of fire discipline at the end should be the real talking point.
    The argument over taser deployment was uncomfortable to watch, as well. There was a lot of lethal cover already and contact was neither asking nor in position for debate.

  3. #23
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    The reason I carry two pistols is to increase the chance that one of them will work when I need one to work. Most of us here shoot a lot more than most people; as such, we have suffered more stoppages and broken more pistols.

    I was reading something that stated that Justin Brown at Ed Brown could count on one hand the number of pistols with broken Brown extractors. I bet that is because most 1911 owners install a new extractor without shipping the pistol back to Brown. I broke one in my Kobra, and I just did the swap myself. Not picking on Brown as I really like my two pistols, but every brand of pistol suffers issues. And when the extractor hook is gone; most failure drills are doomed. The only fix is to shoot another pistol.

    Personally I have experienced four broken 1911 extractors, all in different pistols and all from different brands (Brown, Colt, Norinco, and STI) and in two calibers (.45 and .40). Every failure deadlined the pistol until I could swap extractors. I also have lost pieces of Glock extractors which resulted in an increase in stoppages, but the pistol would respond to "tap, rack, bang". I have also broken 1911 magazine catches and barrel bushings; both failures turn the pistols into paperweights. Lost front and rear sights (luckily not at the same time), which while not fatal to gun operation, make responsible shooting a wee bit tough. Stuff breaks when it gets used.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
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    My wife and I watch “Police Activity” whenever they post a video. Most of their videos involve shootings, and there are incidents when a malfunction occurs. I saw a female police officer clear a double feed in an incredibly fast time, and continue firing. In the ER video, it would appear that the officer used a different mag once he was able to free the first.

  5. #25
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Cherry picking this as some kind of proof of revolver supremacy is absolute bullshit.
    I thought he was posting to give an example of a revolver benefit.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    I thought he was posting to give an example of a revolver benefit.
    Then he failed on that point as well.

    Look, I love revolvers, I have a bunch of them, Colt's and Smith & Wessons. I've also owned Rugers, Ubertis and even a few Tauris' I hate to claim. No one has to inject me with revolver love because I have plenty of it. However, we're talking about context, in this case an LE context. In that context a revolver is a vastly inferior tool to a semi-auto. I can't really imagine why that's even a debate in 2021. A revolver in this situation could have experienced any number of things, a backed out extractor rod, debris under the extractor star, a high primer, any and all of which would have deadlined the gun. All of which had just as high a likelihood of happening compared to the malfunction shown. I started my LE career with a revolver and I saw all these things occur, this is not conjecture. Were there times I got all sentimental and nostalgic for my old Model 27 in that leather basketweave holster, as opposed to the plastic pistol in the plastic holster I had to carry? Sure, but none of it had to do with anything objective or practical.

    Currently we have folks extolling the virtues of the revolver. They'll do a 2k torture test without a single problem, or go through a match without a hickup and claim the old axioms about revolvers being fragile are vastly overblown. Well, shooting a match is one thing. Firing off 2k rounds in the controlled environment of a shooting range is another. Carrying a revolver out in the reals is another thing entirely. Trot down to the Stop-n-Rob for a Slurpy with your wheel gun AWIB and you never have a problem. Good for you. Walk around in the woods with your dog and your six-shooter and pop off a few rounds at some critter, outstanding. Ever carried a revolver in a duty holster policing urban america and had it get bashed around getting in and out of a cruiser, or get it banged around wrestling with a crackhead on the blacktop? Ever carried a relvolver in police work riding a motor and dealt with the grime it seems to attract at an unworldly level? Go back farther. Ever been an English Tommy running around the desert at El Alamein, trying to keep your Webley running in the sand? You're a veteran, you've seen how equipment gets abused in field service. Objectively, how do you think your favorite revolver would fair in a similar situation? It looks like an M&P in the video. Take an M&P and your favorite revolver, go to a range and throw them both down range onto the concrete, now see which one fared better. There's a good reason why revolvers are no longer used in the military and law enforcement (except for a few European police units who're doing it more for panache than practicality).

    You want to carry a revolver simply because you like it? You good big boy, I'm all for it. I'm currently carrying an S&W 4506 for that very reason, so I'm a big believer in the passion of the gun. However, if one wants to use an incident like this as an illustration of some sort of tangible benefit the wheelgun supposedly possesses? Then I'll have to call bullshit on that. There's a lot worthy of discussion in this video, the type of hardware used isn't one of them.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 04-15-2021 at 01:21 PM.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  7. #27
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Then he failed on that point as well

    Look, I love revolvers, I have a bunch of them, Colt's and Smith & Wessons

    .....
    Well said. If it is mechanical, it will fail.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  8. #28
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    .

    My son experienced a failure to extract / double feed. My son followed protocol and handed off his weapon to his RSO. His RSO was unable to clear the malfunction. A second RSO joined in and it became a full on circle jerk when the third RSO joined the party. Eventually the malfunction was cleared. Minutes not seconds were required. The magic technique was one officer holding the frame while another officer held the slide back so the magazine could be removed. All along my son kept thinking, give me the dam thing I'll show you how it's done.

    FYI he finished in 2nd place out of hundreds and prior to that day never shot a DA/SA gun before.
    A) congrats to your son! You taught him well...

    B) there are some really good LEO instructors out there. And there are some mediocre ones. And then there are some that we ALL scratch our heads and ask “why are they here”?

    In my first FI school we had a big mix. 20+ students representing Department of State, US Mint police, ATF, BP, USMS, INS, Postal Inspectors, and even one agency that does not actually exist according to the shooter. It was a wide selection of gear, differing missions, and skill sets. Most were great shooters. But there were a few that had no business teaching anything to anyone. In every discipline, there are some folks teaching who don’t know the subject. LE FIs are no exception.
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    Three years back my son's police cadet Post competed in the North East Regional Law Enforcement Educational Association (NERLEEA) Stations Day competition. At the event prior to the shooting competition all the cadets were instructed, if they experienced a malfunction to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and raise their hand.
    That seems like a terrible policy. People do as they are trained. Well, if the guy in the video stood with his hand up, I guess we'd know why. Reminds me of the stories of old where police involved in shootout using revolvers wound up with the empty casings in their pockets.

  10. #30
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    First, I am not advocating for LEO to carry revolvers. In support of revolvers, in an incident similar to this, I think DB might say the officer would probably have 6 for sure shots. It appears to me the malfunction happened on the first round fired and may have been self induced with poor grip on the pistol. With a DA revolver I think he would have had 6/7 for sure. All maintenance and mechanicals being equal. I think if this had been a similar incident involving an individual with less training than the officer, that individual would have been better served with a revolver.

    I can also understand the desire to have a bug, j-frame or LCR, in a similar case. It may have been faster to drop the service auto on the cot, go to ankle or pocket for the BUG.

    All I can say is I am glad I wasn't there. I used to work in emergency rooms as an RN. Always stayed on edge for the crazy to come in and have that same kind of situation. Of course it was instant termination if a member of the staff was caught with a concealed handgun.

    My opinion and several bucks will get us a SBUX coffee.

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