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Thread: Just When I Started Carrying a Semiauto Pistol, I Saw This..

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    In the training environment, I have witnessed far more wheelguns get deadlined in classes than I have semiautos. Often, this is a result of the user not taking precautionary steps such as cleaning under the extractor. They are often ammo related. That still doesn't change end result.
    Sort of agreeing, and sort of not. If the failures are occurring due to poor maintenance and ammo selection then it is training and practices issues more than a design issue. I've got 10's of thousands of rounds downrange in both revolvers and semi-autos and have seen and experienced more issues with semi-autos than revolvers. Then again I generally use good quality jacketed or plated ammunition and clean on a regular basis.

  2. #12
    This call has led to civil unrest in Columbus, Ohio.

  3. #13
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    Deleted. Inflammatory. Apologies.
    Last edited by Guerrero; 04-15-2021 at 09:49 AM.
    "The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
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  4. #14
    DB has written about revolver vs semi auto pistol reliability.
    I believe the conclusions were that:
    a semiautomatic pistol was more reliable in high round count and/or rough use situation,
    a revolver was more reliable in gunfights not being as grip or Ammo sensitive,
    A revolver is more tolerant of drawer storage neglect.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    In the training environment, I have witnessed far more wheelguns get deadlined in classes than I have semiautos. Often, this is a result of the user not taking precautionary steps such as cleaning under the extractor. They are often ammo related. That still doesn't change end result.
    While true, could we at least agree to all speak in terms of this specific incident and the points for consideration it presents?

    Environtment: Tight and full of obstacles with no-shoots everywhere and zero safe backstops.

    Situation: Sudden and partially unanticipated (they needed to get each others' full attention about the gun after already having spotted ammunition) struggle to ground and up again.

    Stoppage: Stovepipe.

    Potential causes: Bad magazine, extractor and/r or extractor spring issue, problem with ejector, limp-wristing, or some combination. Given seeming appropriate function following the inelegant immediate
    action, probably not the ejector or extractor. With the totality of what we saw, a limp-wrist was highly likely. So this was probably a user-induced feedway stoppage. Assuming the gun has been fired through at least one OPOTA qualification before duty use, ammunition is likely alright.

    So, in a very close range wrestling match with a ton of distraction and positional changes, is it reasonable to posit that a wheelgun would be less likely to have gone down in an active gunfight? I'd personally say yes. taking a broader view of ammunition shortages, range closures, remaining ranges operating at reduced capacity, a summer of love distracting from regular L.E. training schedules, and everyone getting less practice and training than they should to stay up to speed, is a revolver possibly more robust in rusty hands?

    I find that interesting to consider. Right now, people get the defensive ammo they can find. Might a wheelgun be more likely to play nice with it? The usual admonition to train for close range shooting, force-on-force, best practices for reliability in automatics carries less weight as it is much more difficult to achieve right now.

    Despite carrying revolvers, plural, on a daily basis, I'm agnostic about what everyone else does and wouldn't lose a wink of sleep were i to go back to a bottomfeeder. But I do think this incident is a decent illustration of a situation in which a revolver's mechanism carries real benefit over an automatic. And I think this thread could accumulate some very solid and benefitial posts from places of experience if we all agreed to discuss the nuance rather than generalities.

    Have a hyper dog nagging me for his walk so no time to review if this carries some snippy tone. None is intended if so. Oh, speaking of, I noticed a dog handler responded as back-up. If one is likely to be shooting with one hand and an unstable position for handling a leash to control a beast with the support hand, is a revolver worth extra consideration?

  6. #16
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Just posted this exact post over in the “LE use of force” thread...
    ———
    Practice clearing a malfunction!!! Seriously, it took this guy forever (16 seconds) to get that gun back into the fight. If the bad guy had more fight in him, the officer recording would be dead.

    Preaching to the choir here... but “TAP, RACK”... (not working)... “LOCK, RIP, RACK-RACK-RACK, RELOAD, READY”

    Staring at the gun does not fix the gun.
    Three years back my son's police cadet Post competed in the North East Regional Law Enforcement Educational Association (NERLEEA) Stations Day competition. At the event prior to the shooting competition all the cadets were instructed, if they experienced a malfunction to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and raise their hand. Everyone on the line was using range issued Sig 229s in 9mm. Every cadet on the firing line had a police firearms instructor with them as a shadow. (The officer who runs my son's Post was responsible for the range competition required all RSOs to be certified instructors for liability purposes.) All RSOs were volunteers from numerous departments from across the region.

    My son experienced a failure to extract / double feed. My son followed protocol and handed off his weapon to his RSO. His RSO was unable to clear the malfunction. A second RSO joined in and it became a full on circle jerk when the third RSO joined the party. Eventually the malfunction was cleared. Minutes not seconds were required. The magic technique was one officer holding the frame while another officer held the slide back so the magazine could be removed. All along my son kept thinking, give me the dam thing I'll show you how it's done.

    My son's RSO was a female officer from our hometown department. A while later my son and I were shooting at my club with the head firearms instructor from our hometown department. This officer is the real deal and a regular podium finisher at the CT SWAT challenge top cop competition. Stations Day came up in discussion and of course I asked about the my son's RSO that fateful day. I was informed that the Chief of Police said that there must be a female firearms instructor in the department and 'she' got the nod being the best they had that fit the gender qualification.

    I should also add that during my son's time on the firing line she kept giving my son pointers like, "shoot faster", this was a bullseye event with firing points from 3 - 25 yards without time constraints. She also told my son he was "gripping the gun too tightly". FYI he finished in 2nd place out of hundreds and prior to that day never shot a DA/SA gun before.
    Last edited by JohnO; 04-15-2021 at 10:28 AM.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    Some Smith. It’s an interesting malfunction because he was not in contact with anything and he seemed to have a decent grip on the pistol. Just really bad timing.
    I watched the fateful moment a few times and slowed down the video as well. I appeared to me that the thumb of his support hand as he was hastily assembling his firing grip interfered with the rearward travel of the slide when the round was fired.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    In that situation holstering the primary and going to a back up may have been the expedient thing to do. This is actually a good example of the value of a BUG.

    Cherry picking this as some kind of proof of revolver supremacy is absolute bullshit.

    Lack of fire discipline at the end should be the real talking point.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  9. #19
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Cherry picking this as some kind of proof of revolver supremacy is absolute bullshit.
    .
    I’m certainly not cherry picking this incident. I have little faith in all things mechanical, and a semiauto would get the logical nod as it has less moving/intertwined parts. I make weekly trips to the range, and shoot revolvers, Glocks, 1911’s, and one of my P365’s. The semiautomatics are fully reliable, but videos like this always make me wonder about carrying a readily accessible BUG. It seems police aren’t allowed to have a BUG in their pants pocket, but if they were, this officer might have quickly grabbed it.

  10. #20
    I think it was Claude Werner that made an assertion that malfunctions in real world events were far more common than in classes/training.

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