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Thread: So, how do you differentiate a Taser from a gun?

  1. #11
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    When Tasertron produced Tasers, they were designed somewhat like a remote control. When Axon (the TASER International obtained the rights to the technology, the Taser functioned somewhat like a Beretta 92F or S&W 5906. This had the advantage and disadvantage of allowing officers to point and fire the device in a manner most are familiar with.

    If we put a Taser of any model on a table in the classroom next to a pistol, no one would confuse the weapons. Unfortunately, that can fall apart for some people under stress. Axon is pretty definitive in instructor training that the Taser will be worn opposite the handgun (though they did not address vest-mounted Tasers when I last attended).

    What occurs in many cases is a slip and capture error. The Taser is presented somewhat like a handgun (and some Taser holsters replicate some pistol holsters). Officers present handguns much more often in training and perhaps real life than they usually do Tasers. The presentation of the pistol feels right even though it is the opposite of what the officer wants to do.

    In the BART case referenced by HCM, the officer was set up for failure y his department. Since the agency did not have enough Tasers to go around, officers would trade off Tasers at roll call or just after. Depending on what Taser and holster you got, you might be wearing your Taser in one of several positions. In that case, the officer was observed on video fumbling on his belt for his Taser before settling on his SigSauer.

    In this case, it looks like the officer drew her pistol initially, possibly in response to the subject entering his automobile to possibly access a weapon. When he started to flee rather than assault, she made the decision to Taser him, but didn't realize she still had her pistol in hand.

    If you go to the ForceScience.org website, you will find archived research on slip and capture errors in Taser deployments in their newsline. If you want to experience slip and capture errors yourself, borrow a friend's car that is designed differently than yours. You'l have great fun reaching for the radio instead of the AC or trying to shift gears on th efloor rather than on the strearing wheel.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Media gets things wrong all the time. The body cam video has been released in the MN case. I only saw one shot.

    It's ultimately a training / hiring / retention issue.

    To a cop who is a gun nerd on PF feel, heft and sights are things they might notice. To a stressed out/ mentally overloaded non gun person who maybe never should have never been hired or retained in the first place it's all the same.

    IME the look / color difference i.e. yellow tasers is more for suspects, witnesses and video. Officers, especially the ones at greatest risk for these sorts of things have too much going on to notice.
    I’m very curious about the MN officer’s training record.
    #RESIST

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I’m very curious about the MN officer’s training record.
    After initial training you have to attend recert every year, which includes classroom and firing the Taser. From what I’m told, failure to do this every year opens up the officer/agency for liability. If this officer and agency doesn’t do that...they’re screwed.

  4. #14
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    I originally posted in the GD thread, but this seems to be a better thread for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97
    There are generally specific policies and training to try to ensure this type of mistaken tool deployments don’t happen.

    Sadly humans are going to human sometimes and make mistakes despite policy and training. Sadly mistakes like this one involve serious physical injury and death.
    I wonder if this is a situation where a hardware solution might help to solve the problem? Ie not having a lethal and non-lethal tool on the person that are drawn and activated in essentially the same manner, since humans are going to human.
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  5. #15
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    I think it’s time for LE agencies to reevaluate Taser usage in general. As a profession we have become too reliant on the tools on our belts...and a taser is 50/50 at best simply because officers don’t get far enough away for it to be effective of one of the probes misses
    Yes. I'd be happy with a return to baton and O/C. The case law out here on Tasers, specifically Bryan v. McPherson, 630 F.3d 805, argues them more often than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    ...

    ... Axon is pretty definitive in instructor training that the Taser will be worn opposite the handgun (though they did not address vest-mounted Tasers when I last attended).

    ...

    In the BART case referenced by HCM, the officer was set up for failure y his department. Since the agency did not have enough Tasers to go around, officers would trade off Tasers at roll call or just after. Depending on what Taser and holster you got, you might be wearing your Taser in one of several positions. In that case, the officer was observed on video fumbling on his belt for his Taser before settling on his SigSauer.

    ...

    If you want to experience slip and capture errors yourself, borrow a friend's car that is designed differently than yours.
    Has anyone seen what her set-up was?
    I never was a fan of the cross-draw set-up, I wear it weak side so it will be drawn weak hand only.
    @jnc36rcpd has the BART PD / Mesherle incident described correctly. One of the aftermath issues was the lack of a statement.
    A friend's car, a rental car, ... any of them.

    This is tragic, I'll be very interested in the training.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    If you confuse your Taser for a firearm, you're either ineptly trained and experienced or you're using that as an excuse.
    Didn't some people say similar things about folks shooting themselves drawing from a Serpa?

    --------------------------------
    "Whether it was stress or trauma, incompetence or freak accidents, pilots were taking the blame for the accidents that were causing damage to machinery worth thousands of dollars and more importantly, the death of crew members.
    It took the end of the War and intervention of Air Force Psychologist Paul Fitts and his Aviation Psychologist colleague Alfonse Chapanis, to realise that if it were in fact pilot error, the accidents would be random. Instead, data gathered through records and pilot interviews revealed that in 22 months, there had been at least 400 crashes of a similar nature. After interviewing pilots who had survived the crash, they finally decided to investigate the cockpit…and what they found changed the course of aviation forever.
    Chapanis found that the controls for the Wing Flaps and Landing Gear looked exactly the same AND were positioned close to each other.
    So close to each other in fact, that exhausted pilots approached the runway and flipped the switch for what they believed to be the landing gear, but instead flipped the wing flaps switch, slowing their descent and then grounding the plane.
    This breakthrough led to the coining of the term “Designer Error”, essentially absolving the pilots of blame. Chapanis went on to pioneer ‘Shape Coding’, a system that ensured all knobs and levers were different shapes and sizes, redesigning the cockpit and ensuring there was little to no room for confusion for pilots reaching for their controls. No similar incidents took place after this adjustment."
    https://medium.com/swlh/the-flying-f...aw-694523359eb

    ------------------------
    You've got actions with very different desired outcomes that both include "point black pistol-shaped thing at suspect, pull trigger." It doesn't have to be that way.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Didn't some people say similar things about folks shooting themselves drawing from a Serpa?

    --------------------------------
    "Whether it was stress or trauma, incompetence or freak accidents, pilots were taking the blame for the accidents that were causing damage to machinery worth thousands of dollars and more importantly, the death of crew members.
    It took the end of the War and intervention of Air Force Psychologist Paul Fitts and his Aviation Psychologist colleague Alfonse Chapanis, to realise that if it were in fact pilot error, the accidents would be random. Instead, data gathered through records and pilot interviews revealed that in 22 months, there had been at least 400 crashes of a similar nature. After interviewing pilots who had survived the crash, they finally decided to investigate the cockpit…and what they found changed the course of aviation forever.
    Chapanis found that the controls for the Wing Flaps and Landing Gear looked exactly the same AND were positioned close to each other.
    So close to each other in fact, that exhausted pilots approached the runway and flipped the switch for what they believed to be the landing gear, but instead flipped the wing flaps switch, slowing their descent and then grounding the plane.
    This breakthrough led to the coining of the term “Designer Error”, essentially absolving the pilots of blame. Chapanis went on to pioneer ‘Shape Coding’, a system that ensured all knobs and levers were different shapes and sizes, redesigning the cockpit and ensuring there was little to no room for confusion for pilots reaching for their controls. No similar incidents took place after this adjustment."
    https://medium.com/swlh/the-flying-f...aw-694523359eb

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    You've got actions with very different desired outcomes that both include "point black pistol-shaped thing at suspect, pull trigger." It doesn't have to be that way.
    Yes, but you're using false equivalency with the Serpa as an example. There's nothing wrong with the Tasers design, whereas the Serpa was obviously designed by a drunk retarded monkey.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  8. #18
    Site Supporter S Jenks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    I originally posted in the GD thread, but this seems to be a better thread for it.



    I wonder if this is a situation where a hardware solution might help to solve the problem? Ie not having a lethal and non-lethal tool on the person that are drawn and activated in essentially the same manner, since humans are going to human.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Yes, but you're using false equivalency with the Serpa as an example. There's nothing wrong with the Tasers design, whereas the Serpa was obviously designed by a drunk retarded monkey.
    The engineer who designed the SERPA had zero firearms experience and never fired a gun when he designed it...

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The engineer who designed the SERPA had zero firearms experience and never fired a gun when he designed it...
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

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