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Thread: So, how do you differentiate a Taser from a gun?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Yes, but you're using false equivalency with the Serpa as an example. There's nothing wrong with the Tasers design, whereas the Serpa was obviously designed by a drunk retarded monkey.
    Except that it looks, feels, and operates somewhat like a firearm?

    Is that a feature or a flaw?

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    After the Three Mile Island accident, an NRC study found that operators at one nuclear power plant had placed different beer tap handles on some of the identical reactor controls so they could tell them apart.

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    Last edited by peterb; 04-12-2021 at 08:58 PM.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Except that it looks, feels, and operates like a firearm?

    Is that a feature or a flaw?

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    Actually, it always reminded me of a dust buster.

    Personally, I'd be fine if they eliminated the thing entirely. Taser sold law enforcement on their gadget as the answer to all their ills. Most of us knew that wasn't the case and it's turned out to be anything but.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Taser sold law enforcement on their gadget as the answer to all their ills. Most of us knew that wasn't the case and it's turned out to be anything but.
    I suspect that marketing plays into the current design. "Futuristic badass weapon" is probably an easier sell than something that looks like a toy.
    Last edited by peterb; 04-12-2021 at 09:21 PM.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Our policy specifies weak side carry only for tasers.

    @LittleLebowski me and some fellow students (at a police command school) were having that same conversation about her training records. Be interesting to see what comes out down the road. I won’t be shocked if it ain’t good.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  5. #25
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Our policy mandated support side carry on the waist or on an outer carrier. I wore my Taser on my left hip setup for a cross draw but I always used my left hand to draw it and then transition it to my right hand. It was a completely different, distinct draw from my pistol. Our policy mandated you spark test it before your shift. Just spark testing was about 200 draws a year. We had yearly reverts and training for Tasers which sometimes had FoF scenarios running Sims guns and Tasers. It’s about training until it’s automatic so when your under stress you can make the draw without fumbling. It’s a lot of stress inoculation and going to a lot of high risk low frequency calls.

    Tasers have an electronic display on the backplate, they are turned on with a safety switch, and some are yellow.

    When I was certified as a Taser operator I had to go to a one day Taser class. I carried all the different versions the Dept went through. I was certified as a Taser instructor in a two day class. I as more of a back up instructor. Two other guys on the full time SWAT squad I was on were the full time instructors. I don’t know how many times I rode the lightening back when it wasn’t an option. I guess that’s why I’ve posted a lot on these threads.

    I liked using OC more than the Taser. In fact I carried the big X2 and I don’t think I ever used it other than certs. Taser was listed on our UoF policy as an impact weapon along with batons, bean bags, and dog bites. Theoretically a dog bite was the same as a Taser deployment. OC was much lower and I had a very high success rate with Sabre Red. We had to carry Tasers. If it was a choice I’d have left the X2 in the car.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  6. #26
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    Coyote's agency policy is an example of the issues with the "force continuum". How is anyone going to figure out that step-ladder? A dog bite is the same as a Taser deployment? I never liked getting Tasered, but that was a lot better than suffering the more likely serious injuries of a dog bite.

    To respond to peterb, the Taser's design is both an advantage and a disadvantage. Pointing and discharging a pistol is engrained in most officers. The similarity of a Taser to a pistol makes discharging a Taser pretty engrained. The downside is situations like this.

    Some years ago, I read recommendations for much more extensive practical Taser training. This would have entailed discharge at targets in different positions. The argument makes a ton of sense. Axon only requires minimal deployments in initial or sustainment training. Unfortunately, Taser cartridges run $25 a shot when I was running my former agency's program. Training cartridges didn't run much cheaper. Today, with fewer cops around in many departments and the emphasis placed on "guardian" and "implicit bias" training,many agencies aren't going to throw the money at buying Taser cartridges for training.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    Coyote's agency policy is an example of the issues with the "force continuum". How is anyone going to figure out that step-ladder? A dog bite is the same as a Taser deployment? I never liked getting Tasered, but that was a lot better than suffering the more likely serious injuries of a dog bite.

    To respond to peterb, the Taser's design is both an advantage and a disadvantage. Pointing and discharging a pistol is engrained in most officers. The similarity of a Taser to a pistol makes discharging a Taser pretty engrained. The downside is situations like this.

    Some years ago, I read recommendations for much more extensive practical Taser training. This would have entailed discharge at targets in different positions. The argument makes a ton of sense. Axon only requires minimal deployments in initial or sustainment training. Unfortunately, Taser cartridges run $25 a shot when I was running my former agency's program. Training cartridges didn't run much cheaper. Today, with fewer cops around in many departments and the emphasis placed on "guardian" and "implicit bias" training,many agencies aren't going to throw the money at buying Taser cartridges for training.
    We argued against putting dog bites on the force continuum. We justified bites with Graham v Connor for a long time without being on it. Part of the reason was dogs were mostly locating tools. Believe me as handlers we didn’t go wild with it. I thought it was humorous/admin ironic that Tasers and bites were at the same level.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  8. #28
    thank y'all for the replies. i appreciate it

  9. #29
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    Here is a great and quick read that explains how and why us humans are not only prone to human error but pretty much are prewired to jack shit up continuously:

    https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Make-M...8067/ref=nodl_

    I’ve read it a couple of times and keep it for reference. It’s kind of scary, and very humbling once you read through it, see the real life examples and get a good understanding of how error prone we all are.

  10. #30
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    I don’t know anything about the agency or the officer except she is described as a 26-year veteran, and the video shows the Taser is worn opposite the gun side at that agency. The reason that tasers have generally migrated from strong to weak side carry and are often yellow, is at least in part this very issue. (Electronic Control Weapon Guidelines (PERF 2011) This is taser/gun confusion is not an unknown situation.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/u...taser-gun.html

    I have to assume a cop with over 20 years on the job has had a lot of training on the taser as well as the firearm. Without getting into technical stuff and citing research, the answer here could be incompetence, but could just as easily be a simple truth the officer was sufficiently stressed that when her brain told her hand to grab her taser, the hand grabbed the gun. To quote a guy named Heim who is well know in unintentional discharge research (not on this specific situation), “the finger does not always obey the brain”

    I think it is reasonable to assume that in the past two decades, this officer has correctly differentiated her taser from her gun many times. This time, there was a communication error that she could not really control and did not recognize until too late. If any of us thinks we are incapable of making the same “mistake” under the right circumstances, or I guess wrong circumstances, we are probably fooling ourselves. As someone mentioned above, it might be prudent to change the design of the taser so it neither looks like nor feels like a gun. It may be that the taser’s “gun-like” design really is a defect, following the reasoning of Don Norman (Human Factors Expert).

    Again, I don’t know the cop or the agency and it could be training or competence issues or even cognitive decline due to age, or perhaps an overactive stress response, or maybe a history of such things that has not been properly addressed; I don’t know, and am not willing to condemn the officer or the agency based on the BWC video. This type of thing is just one reason I have begun to have serious doubts about the value of tasers, as opposed to their risks.

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