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Thread: Army officer sues Virginia police over violent traffic stop

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    "Keep your hands out the window"

    And

    "get out if the car now"

    Are conflicting commands

    The LT didn't help himself by asking questions, instead of complying, he's a soldier and should recognize that you follow commands first, ask questions later. If I were his CO, he'd get a dressing down for that particular attitude.

    Still officers here need some remedial training in issuing commands. Not getting stuck in a script loop. AND better coordination in who is giving the commands. Two officers yelling conflicting commands is a good way to end up in trouble...for example...this case.
    This has been described as a "felony stop" which it wasn't, really, but when we did felony stops, only one person gave commands. Everybody else shut their pie hole unless they happened to notice something of immediate concern, and if you forgot that verbal counseling from a supervisor would ensue.
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  2. #12
    Revolvers Revolvers 1911s Stephanie B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    It may or may not be, circumstances depending, but it is still illegal. It's probably not fleeing, but will likely fall under failure to yield to emergency vehicle. It definitely can influence the tone of the stop afterward, as the slow roll is often stuffing dope/guns or calling buddies or prepping to flee. I freely admit that this may not be fair, but women will get away with it more then men. Women will likely get the benefit of the doubt of "safety concern" as a reason for rolling from male cops at night, at least.
    It was years ago that I heard that advice. If my memory is accurate, it was given by a statie who was a guest lecturer at a women's shooting group meeting. The advice was to turn on the flashers and proceed safely to a lit area at night. There might have been a discussion about police impersonators.

    (Every so often, I read that they pick one of those fools up because they try to stop a real cop.)
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  3. #13
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie B View Post
    It was years ago that I heard that advice. If my memory is accurate, it was given by a statie who was a guest lecturer at a women's shooting group meeting. The advice was to turn on the flashers and proceed safely to a lit area at night. There might have been a discussion about police impersonators.

    (Every so often, I read that they pick one of those fools up because they try to stop a real cop.)
    Yup. The general advise is if in doubt, call 911, turn your hazards on, and drive to a well lit/populated area. It's something like a 'competing harms doctrine', nothing that's actually codified in law. You could be written for failure to yield in theory, but the reality is that's very unlikely for anyone attending a women's shooting group.

    Like I said, the context will matter. The officer now has the question in his/her head "why is this person not complying?" If "I was afraid to be raped" seems plausible, that's a valid explanation and the stop will probably go as normal from that point, which is why I said women will get by with it easier then men. If that's not plausible, the officer is still looking for an explanation, and experience will say that people who slow roll are hiding something or prepping to flee or fight. The stop will likely precede along those lines.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    "Keep your hands out the window"

    And

    "get out if the car now"

    Are conflicting commands
    Maybe if you shaved your door handles or something, but the one time I was issued such a command I just used the outside door handle. Once the door is open, it is easy enough for everyone to see whether you need to remove a seat belt.

    FWIW, this happened to me in a very similar situation: I did not pull over immediately because it was a blind curve and I knew there was a well-lit parking lot 1/4 mile away. This really keyed up the officer (I think mostly because I proceeded to the lot rather slowly), but after things settled down he understood why I'd done it and ultimately I walked away with a warning when I surely would have gotten a speeding ticket if I hadn't been treated like a dangerous felon for a couple minutes.

  5. #15
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    This has been described as a "felony stop" which it wasn't, really, but when we did felony stops, only one person gave commands. Everybody else shut their pie hole unless they happened to notice something of immediate concern, and if you forgot that verbal counseling from a supervisor would ensue.
    The officer that initiated the stop called it in as a felony stop, that's all I know. Maybe that's Windsor VA's idea of such, maybe they fucked it up?
    #RESIST

  7. #17
    As a non-police officer, who has little-to-no knowledge of the procedures and techniques involved in this kind of stop, this situation looks really bad. I think the LT set himself up, by driving to a lighted area, then filming himself during the stop (like he expected confrontation). Nevertheless, it appears the officers escalated up in use of force, when there might have been a better way to discuss the situation with the LT.

    The LT appeared respectful, confused, and afraid for his safety. Whether that was an act, I cannot tell. But if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, BLM, and all the other hustlers get ahold of this video, I see it going much worse than the current use-of-force controversies currently in the news. Not only for the jurisdiction that has to write the check, but also for the larger task of policing and keeping the peace.

    I am a friend to law enforcement, and I believe that officers on patrol have a difficult and thankless task. I wave to them when I see them on the street, and thank them for their service when we pass in the store. That traffic stop seemed a little confrontational and unnecessary to this average citizen. Andy Griffith would not have done that in Mayberry, and I hope that kind of stop does not happen in my county full of military families. Just my opinion.
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  8. #18
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    The Army officer was not exactly complying. I heard him play his sovereign citizen cards. At the start, he asks why the weapons are drawn, and when he's first told to get out of the vehicle, he says that he won't. In response to any commands, instead of complying, he keeps asking what's going on, maybe 5 or 10 times. "I'm serving my country and this is how I'm treated?" "For a traffic violation I do not have to get out of the vehicle." "Get your hands off me." "I'm trying to talk to you." "Will you please relax." And so on. He never says "please tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it," or gives any indication that he is complying.

    Our governor has now weighed in, including inviting the Army officer to visit.

    https://wjla.com/news/local/lawsuit-...m-to-let-it-go
    Last edited by trailrunner; 04-11-2021 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    The officer that initiated the stop called it in as a felony stop, that's all I know. Maybe that's Windsor VA's idea of such, maybe they fucked it up?
    Not sure if it matters, but Windsor is a small town on highway 460 between the metropolitan areas of Tidewater (Norfolk, Suffolk, Chesapeake, Virginia Beach) and Richmond. I've only been there once, and that was 25 years ago.

  10. #20
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    I’m extremely sympathetic to the LT here.
    Cops have pulled him over, and are suddenly pointing guns at him.
    He’s asking reasonable questions.
    He has a gun beside his seat, and is being told:
    “Keep your hands outside the window”
    “Take your seatbelt off”
    “Get out of the vehicle”

    Can’t do all at once. And he REALLY doesn’t want to reach for the seatbelt buckle, which is near the gun, while the cop holds a gun on him, and may see the gun at exactly the wrong moment.

    Was the LT not complying? Yes - but passively (partially for the reasons I just mentioned). And he was respectful, and very deliberate about being non-threatening.
    Having once been a 20-something 2nd Lt, I can very much put myself in this young man’s place.

    I also always default to giving the policeman on the scene the benefit of the doubt. But, having watched this video, the officer who first approached the window was unnecessarily aggressive. When there’s a young man in uniform with his hands out the window, it’s time to start slowly deescalating and actually having some conversation. Or at least not escalate to pepper spray so rapidly.
    And the same officer didn’t do his department any favors when he started negotiating, while talking about what they COULD charge the LT with.
    If I was his CO, or his CO’s boss, or his boss (pretty much where I eventually wound up), I’d watch that video and back him.

    In my view, the first officer to approach got carried away. The other officer (the one who had just graduated from “Rookie School”) seemed to have better instincts to give the LT credit for wanting to comply, but being fearful.

    This is the first footage I’ve seen that makes me really believe that black “suspects” get treated differently. And that really makes me sad.
    I need to think about the implications some more. But I suspect there are thousands of people who will watch that bodycam video and have their “racist cop” beliefs confirmed. And others (maybe me) who will come to understand the problem in a way they didn’t before.

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