Army officer sues Virginia police over violent traffic stop

[whomever]

"given he “knew” he wasn’t breaking any laws"

I may know that I haven't broken any laws, but that doesn't mean someone didn't call 911 saying they just saw someone who matches my description, in a car like mine, robbing a bank a few blocks away.


(speaking of prior events ... there was one several years ago in ??Tennessee??. The family was on vacation. Dad left his wallet on the car roof at a gas station and money is blowing in the wind. Someone called 911, and as the family blissfully rolls down the interstate the call gets handed off from one jurisdiction to another. It's like kids playing 'telephone'. Eventually the dispatchers are telling officers it is a kidnapping, IIRC, and the bewildered family gets the full felony stop experience. That was a sucky situation, but it sure wouldn't have helped if Dad started arguing.)

[TGS]

What do we know about the 1 mile stretch of road that he continued down? Did he cruise past multiple intersections or other "well lit areas" during that stretch or was this an empty country road?

Went and looked at the map. I don't know which direction he came from, but there's multiple well lit businesses in each direction for the mile that he had driven. I'm guessing he was coming from the east given how he pulled in to the gas station/where he parked......which means that in addition to passing several well lit businesses on his side of road, he even passed the police department itself.

This likely played into the initiating officers decision making process to make this a felony stop that @TC215 and @HCM have adeptly noted.

I knew a situation like this would become a reality.

We are now at a point where a relatively minor traffic stop is national fucking news.

Just wanted to quote this for posterity and to bring it more attention. I regret that I have only one "like" to give for your comment.

[JRB]

Jesus Christ, talking about mistakes being made on both sides...

I read the entirety of the thread until I got caught up, and then actually viewed the recording.

Based on the conversation i read I was very empathetic with how Gyro F16 was viewing things. I heard a lot of viewpoint from others here on how the officers were coming at things appropriately given the info they had. From my perspective it was sounding like from the Lt’s perspective he was also acting rationally, given he “knew” he wasn’t breaking any laws, and having the news tell him over and over about how often “his kind” gets mistreated and even killed by the police. I believe from his viewpoint it was completely rational to wait until he got to a public place to pull over, and the fact that he pulled over in such a public place should have been partially factored into the police response.

But then I watched the video... I understand he was probably both scared and affronted at the same time. When he was first sticking his hands out the window and getting conflicting orders I felt for him. And I really had a big problem with the officer’s response of “you should be scared”.

But dang, who in their right mind would think that most of the Lt’s responses were going to actually help the situation? It felt more willfully obstinate to me than anything else. And the fact that he was an Lt made that worse for me; sure they weren’t in his chain of command but I would have hoped there was just a tiny bit of a default tendency to obey orders.

I don’t know; I never seem to lose my analytical nature under stress, maybe I just can’t relate as well as I should to people whose brains shut down under stress.

Folks that perceive themselves to be in positions of authority and respect are often that much more shaken up/obstinate/etc when that authority/respect is genuinely challenged from outside their 'system'. Happens to military officers, PhD's, MD's, Sergeants Major, etc.

A lot of NCO's and Officers end up in similar spats over rank/authority(with admittedly lower stakes) between military branches or even different commands within the same branch.
As an E4 once I told off a 1SG (E8) that was out of his lane giving me a hard time, and in response I was genuinely disrespectful and insubordinate - lots of F-bombs and all. That 1SG went to my 1SG looking for blood, and my 1SG told him to pound sand. Nothing came of it except a funny story.

The problem is that civilian/Fed LE has no such room for that kind of pushback - even MP's have more understanding of these situations and the stakes are generally lower since everyone speaks military. Confusing one's authority/rank as to carrying weight to a completely outside LE entity like civilian LE or Feds is a huge mistake but a regrettably common one.

Talk to any LEO's that have a beat right outside a military base and they'll have dozens of stories of some joe trying to pull rank with them to get out of speeding/DUI/etc.

So this situation, as harsh and shocking as it is, really follows a familiar context in a lot of ways.

[jh9]

We draw firearms for officer safety, to make it harder for you to kill us.

Okay, but a growing number of people share that concern.

And in any democratic republic they do, ultimately, have a say in the matter. If your argument is going to boil down to just "comply better" then we're at a place where conducting business as usual is going to have the same responses. i.e. More video evidence of a goat rodeo that didn't need to happen and further eroded faith in law enforcement as an institution. You can blame the media for fanning the flames, but you can also blame the moon for the tide.

Because technical nuance aside, when at the end of it you have a crime where the only crime worth mentioning is resisting arrest then it begs the question as to whether or not that interaction was worth having to begin with. HCM's post about the temporary tag irregularities being the precursor to something bigger is an interesting one. But if the response to what a lot of people see as regular human error done in panic is drawn guns then people are going to start thinking about the nature of that interaction and how it could be different.

For a lot of people their opinion is going to begin and end at this:

When two Windsor police officers, guns drawn, ordered him to get out, he said, "I'm honestly afraid to get out."

"Yeah dude, you should be," one officer responds.

You're not going to see me at a defund-the-police rally or showing up to the capitol to support the driver. But that right there? Yeah. That is not winning friends and influencing people.

[Hambo]

You do understand, don't you, that I was writing that from the perspective of the guy in the car? You do understand, I hope, that the perception is that Black guys get shot more often by cops than white guys?

I did not get that from the way you wrote the first two sentences. It read like it's all your opinion/belief.

[luckyman]

Folks that perceive themselves to be in positions of authority and respect are often that much more shaken up/obstinate/etc when that authority/respect is genuinely challenged from outside their 'system'. Happens to military officers, PhD's, MD's, Sergeants Major, etc.

A lot of NCO's and Officers end up in similar spats over rank/authority(with admittedly lower stakes) between military branches or even different commands within the same branch.
As an E4 once I told off a 1SG (E8) that was out of his lane giving me a hard time, and in response I was genuinely disrespectful and insubordinate - lots of F-bombs and all. That 1SG went to my 1SG looking for blood, and my 1SG told him to pound sand. Nothing came of it except a funny story.

The problem is that civilian/Fed LE has no such room for that kind of pushback - even MP's have more understanding of these situations and the stakes are generally lower since everyone speaks military. Confusing one's authority/rank as to carrying weight to a completely outside LE entity like civilian LE or Feds is a huge mistake but a regrettably common one.

Talk to any LEO's that have a beat right outside a military base and they'll have dozens of stories of some joe trying to pull rank with them to get out of speeding/DUI/etc.

So this situation, as harsh and shocking as it is, really follows a familiar context in a lot of ways.

Huh, I learned something. Thanks. [emoji1]

[wvincent]

Folks that perceive themselves to be in positions of authority and respect are often that much more shaken up/obstinate/etc when that authority/respect is genuinely challenged from outside their 'system'. Happens to military officers, PhD's, MD's, Sergeants Major, etc.

A lot of NCO's and Officers end up in similar spats over rank/authority(with admittedly lower stakes) between military branches or even different commands within the same branch.
As an E4 once I told off a 1SG (E8) that was out of his lane giving me a hard time, and in response I was genuinely disrespectful and insubordinate - lots of F-bombs and all. That 1SG went to my 1SG looking for blood, and my 1SG told him to pound sand. Nothing came of it except a funny story.

The problem is that civilian/Fed LE has no such room for that kind of pushback - even MP's have more understanding of these situations and the stakes are generally lower since everyone speaks military. Confusing one's authority/rank as to carrying weight to a completely outside LE entity like civilian LE or Feds is a huge mistake but a regrettably common one.

Talk to any LEO's that have a beat right outside a military base and they'll have dozens of stories of some joe trying to pull rank with them to get out of speeding/DUI/etc.

So this situation, as harsh and shocking as it is, really follows a familiar context in a lot of ways.

My experience as an LE in the Mil, the Senior NCO's were far more difficult than Officers. Giving the stink eye, looking for uniform violations while in the middle of a traffic stop or call is not conducive, just saying.

[DDTSGM]

How many times have you seen an explanation magically make a person comply? That's not usually how that works.

I don't know, I didn't know I was supposed to count. I do know that once I began asking rather than telling, and then explaining why if resistance was met, I got along a lot better. The folks that hopped out after I said 'I'd appreciate it if you'd get out of the car' instead of 'Get out of the car' may have got out anyway.

I can think of several times when I defused situations created by other officers, none of them particularly momentous.

In dealing with difficult people there is no magic bullet that works all the time. But trying to work things 'little badge' if you aren't required to go 'big badge' often works.

And, let's be clear, nothing about this requires an officer to take needless risk.

As I wrote earlier, the thing is, you never know for sure whether the only thing that kept you from having problems was your demeanor and use of tact.

[TheNewbie]

I don't know, I didn't know I was supposed to count. I do know that once I began asking rather than telling, and then explaining why if resistance was met, I got along a lot better. The folks that hopped out after I said 'I'd appreciate it if you'd get out of the car' instead of 'Get out of the car' may have got out anyway.

I can think of several times when I defused situations created by other officers, none of them particularly momentous.

In dealing with difficult people there is no magic bullet that works all the time. But trying to work things 'little badge' if you aren't required to go 'big badge' often works.

And, let's be clear, nothing about this requires an officer to take needless risk.

As I wrote earlier, the thing is, you never know for sure whether the only thing that kept you from having problems was your demeanor and use of tact.

Really agree with this.

[UNK]

Yup. The general advise is if in doubt, call 911, turn your hazards on, and drive to a well lit/populated area. It's something like a 'competing harms doctrine', nothing that's actually codified in law. You could be written for failure to yield in theory, but the reality is that's very unlikely for anyone attending a women's shooting group.

Like I said, the context will matter. The officer now has the question in his/her head "why is this person not complying?" If "I was afraid to be raped" seems plausible, that's a valid explanation and the stop will probably go as normal from that point, which is why I said women will get by with it easier then men. If that's not plausible, the officer is still looking for an explanation, and experience will say that people who slow roll are hiding something or prepping to flee or fight. The stop will likely precede along those lines.

Id like to see the video of a cops reaction if a guy said I didnt stop because I was afraid of being raped.