Army officer sues Virginia police over violent traffic stop

[LittleLebowski]

A good friend of mine who goes to my church was shot 4 times (1 stopped by the vest) a few months back. He's in the local Sheriff's Dept and was stopping a guy for a minor traffic infraction at 2 a.m. He gets to carry a bullet next to his spine and never regain full use of a couple of his left fingers. Perp shot him up as he approached and then sped off, leaving him laying on the ground.

You're darned if you do, darned if you don't.

Traffic stops are fucking dangerous. See the recent horrific New Mexico murder

[Erik]

I get that the LT started off with some attitude. But I’m here to say that I believe that most of America will have a problem with how this whole thing went down. And their problem won’t be with the LT.

[GyroF-16]

I don't think racism had anything to do with this. I can flip a coin and say either the Lt was looking for a payday or froze up in disbelief that this was happening to him, so fast, especially with conflicting and threatening orders. "I'm afraid to get out." "You should be."

I guess the real question (and it’s unknowable) is whether the cop would have treated a white LT in an Army uniform exactly the same.

[jf837]

I’ve heard that advice being given about getting stopped by an unmarked car...this was a fully-marked police car. I always picked out where I wanted people to stop for a reason. Driving a mile before pulling over absolutely raises suspicion.

I agree. The officer initiating the stop decides when and where the stop takes place. If someone slow rolls until the next parking lot that is somewhat reasonable. This guy went a mile. The officers were within their rights to handle this as a high-risk stop. Additionally, the army officer resisted the officers by failing to exit the vehicle, which he is bound to do by Mimms v. Pennsylvania. The police should have charged him accordingly. The army officer was in the wrong all the way around.

[Borderland]

So, since I didn't watch all 34 minutes of the video, I have some questions regarding it's content:

1) What was the search of the vehicle based on?

2) Officers, do you routinely OC folks, take them to the ground, handcuff them and then release them w/o charges?

Pretty sure the city is going to pay up for the Tactical Timmy action. Regardless of whether the LT was trolling for victimhood.

A very long time ago a friend and I were leaving a party at night and were pulled over by two police vehicles. Two police officers approached my vehicle with weapons drawn. I guess that was one of those "felony stops". We were ordered out of the vehicle and hand cuffed. As we were on our way to jail I asked what the charge was. Armed robbery I was told. I asked a few more questions but didn't get any answers. I then said it might be a good idea to check out our story before we were processed. So they did and got several people to back it up. We were at a friends house from about 8 pm to about 1 am and never left. I guess we more or less fit the description of two white males and happened to be on an island when the crime was committed. The police took my keys and I didn't get them back until about 2 hours after they released us on the side of the road. I don't think that was a mistake.

I don't know about anyone else, but I get a little nervous when people start screaming and pointing a gun at me.

[jh9]

Traffic stops are fucking dangerous. See the recent horrific New Mexico murder

Which probably begs the question why are we using the same pretext to interact with two completely different cases:

1) Joe Citizen has a busted tail light. Here is a ticket for $50. Get it fixed.
2) Shady McFuckhead has a busted tail light, two bricks of cocaine, eighty gigs of child porn, a rocket launcher and a glass dildo. Here is the legal entry point to finding cause to investigate and then arresting this guy on a bunch of felony charges.

Ten years ago the idea that bodycams would be common was considered implausible. Why are cops still walking up to the driver in person? I know people are going to shit on the thought as another visit from the good idea fairy but why aren't we at least considering some sort of quadcopter drone with a camera, speaker and a box for the drivers license / insurance cards to replace the initial contact?

I don't want to sound glib, but it sounds like we're at a crossroads where both the driver and the officer are concerned about their safety because of the other guy and it's going to keep making the news as long as these incidents happen regardless of how low the percentages are when compared to total police interactions with the public. Why are we not thinking in terms of how to remove that in-person interaction entirely?

It seems very high risk and low reward in most cases. Does having an ink signature on a speeding ticket matter that much? If so, does it need to? It's not like I'm paying the fine on the side of the road anyway.

[TGS]

I appreciate your response, and hearing your take on the situation.
Yes, during the initial news reports, I concluded that the driver could not have been pulled over for “being black”, given that it was night and the windows were tinted.
The reason it appeared to me that race may have been a factor was how rapidly the aggressiveness escalated once the window was down and the older, senior cop (I’ll call him “Cop 1”) could see the driver. And because, as a white man, I’ve never experienced that type of behavior from a cop. And frankly it surprised me to see that behavior towards the LT.

My initial take on the one cop ramping up the aggressiveness of the verbal commands was clearly because the guy was failing to comply on a felony stop. When a felony stop subject fails to comply, you don't say, "Oh ok, well, have a good night, you don't want to comply so I guess I'll just go away." You force compliance.

You know what the difference between all the sovereign citizen videos and this guy is? He happens to be black. The results are exactly the same for whites pulling this bullshit, though....just as it was for me when I decided it'd be a good idea to run from the cops as a 16y/o white male when they were investigating a reported shooting by a white male teenager. Maybe that's why I don't like 3rd Gen S&Ws these days, since it's what was trained on me by the cops

I’ve always believed, and have taught my sons that, if you’re a good guy, and demonstrate to a police officer that you’re not a threat, there’s no danger during a police interaction. The footage of this interaction gave me pause.

Why would it give you pause though? That LT was emphatically not being a good guy. He was being shady as fuck, actually. If an officer initiates a felony stop and you don't comply, everything you're doing is going to be rightfully assessed as deceptive. There was a video recently in the OIS thread showing the coworker of one of our P-F.com members being executed by a subject feigning compliance, to put it into perspective.

It's no different for plainclothes cops who get a good guy halo over their head and think the responding uniforms know they're a cop, ignoring their commands and getting pissed off they won't acknowledge him as a fellow good guy. It doesn't matter what the fuck you think in your head about being a good guy; it matters if you're actually presenting/acting like a good guy. Take for instance that ATF agent that got proned out, tased and cuffed. Did those cops do it to him because he was black? No, he was white.....they did it to him because he was being fucking dumb.

[MickAK]

There's lots of ways to make a dick cop stop being a dick, but absolutely none from the inside of a vehicle.

Unfortunately people feel safe and powerful in their cars, so this will probably continue to be an issue.

[Hambo]

Well, that's the crux isn't it. If not from sympathy from you, then from the public at large.

Perception is reality. Optics matter. And the perception, whether you think it's well-founded or not, is that a growing swath of the American public thinks interacting with LE is playing a game of Simon Says where getting it wrong means getting your brains scattered across the pavement. Things like this don't help. Had it ended like the Shaver/Brailsford incident did cities would be on fire.

Sovereign citizen vibes or not, you've got someone who has their temporary tag in the wrong place but is otherwise in compliance with the law. The rub seems to be not stopping soon enough. You might think he's getting ready to fight/flee/destroy evidence but the average viewer watching that video is, more and more, going to think he's not wrong for trying to get to a well-lit gas station so at least there's video/witnesses of him getting executed.

That perception has to be addressed.

A couple of random points on my perception. If he's so fucking worried about getting stopped, why not make sure his car is 100% unlikely to get stopped? I get the sovereign vibe because the dash cam in my Tacoma is focused outboard. His was on him. Sovereign citizens come in all colors. Of course he could be worried because he's black, but we're back to square one of not driving with violations, plus he's halfway to a free pass just because he's in the military.

I don't disagree with you on the perception, or that it needs to be addressed. I like to think I would have done better talking to the guy than the two officers involved, but if he had done all the same things, I'd also have charged him and let the prosecutor or judge sort it out.

As far as changing the larger perspective, we need to stop the dog whistles over every LE encounter. Here's a flash for everybody: nobody likes dealing with LE, just the same as no one likes the IRS. LE "customers" are usually unhappy with their police service because it puts an end to whatever happy shit they do on a daily basis. The media is fanning the flames, and I don't know how you get them to stop. "LT nearly killed by police" sells more than the reality that most people stop and take their ticket like an adult.

[GyroF-16]

Okay - I’ve been trying to have a discussion, and what’s resulting is an argument.

I’ll bow out now.

My initial take on the one cop ramping up the aggressiveness of the verbal commands was clearly because the guy was failing to comply on a felony stop. When a felony stop subject fails to comply, you don't say, "Oh ok, well, have a good night, you don't want to comply so I guess I'll just go away." You force compliance.

You know what the difference between all the sovereign citizen videos and this guy is? He happens to be black. The results are exactly the same for whites pulling this bullshit, though....just as it was for me when I decided it'd be a good idea to run from the cops as a 16y/o white male when they were investigating a reported shooting by a white male teenager. Maybe that's why I don't like 3rd Gen S&Ws these days, since it's what was trained on me by the cops



Why would it give you pause though? That LT was emphatically not being a good guy. He was being shady as fuck, actually. If an officer initiates a felony stop and you don't comply, everything you're doing is going to be rightfully assessed as deceptive. There was a video recently in the OIS thread showing the coworker of one of our P-F.com members being executed by a subject feigning compliance, to put it into perspective.

It's no different for plainclothes cops who get a good guy halo over their head and think the responding uniforms know they're a cop, ignoring their commands and getting pissed off they won't acknowledge him as a fellow good guy. It doesn't matter what the fuck you think in your head about being a good guy; it matters if you're actually presenting/acting like a good guy. Take for instance that ATF agent that got proned out, tased and cuffed. Did those cops do it to him because he was black? No, he was white.....they did it to him because he was being fucking dumb.