Army officer sues Virginia police over violent traffic stop

[jetfire]

The following isn't directed at anyone specific, but if you feel like I'm talking to/about you, maybe take a look in the mirror.

I am honestly shocked by some of the LE replies in this thread that basically boil down to "well he should have complied harder." Do you not see how that sounds to people who aren't cops? Writing off the actions of the LT as "looking for a payday" or "disrespectful to authority" when you have no idea of what was going through his head in that moment?

I know some people have pointed out how bad those two cops fucked up, but those seem to be in the minority as a whole raft of everyone else tries to finds reasons to justify what was one of the shittiest conducted high risk traffic stops I have ever seen. I have seen 19 year kids fresh out of the AF Security Forces school do better high-risk stops than that. Hell, I would even buy that the actual stop itself and running it as a high risk stop was initially justified, but after that? This was some straight up keystone cops shit, and it's a fucking embarrassment to anyone who has ever worn a badge.

Christ.

[Wake27]

Cops and military service members don't get along anywhere.

News to me. Sounds more like cops and military service members that are being unnecessarily aggressive/breaking the law don't get along anywhere.

[whomever]

"well he should have complied harder."

I'm not an LEO, but complying harder sounds absolutely right to me.

You don't have to:

1)agree to a consent search or
2)agree to answer (most) questions

I'm probably missing a couple of other things, but in general other than that short list, do what the man says. There is no societal benefit to escalating things to the point where someone mistakes a gun for a taser. Cooperate, and if you have a complaint, that's what courts are for - to settle disagreements without the potential for violence, even accidental violence.

To be clear, this is about compliance, not respect, feigned or otherwise. IMHO, it shouldn't matter whether you decline to answer questions with 'I'm sorry officer, but I can't answer any questions without my lawyer present' or 'You can stick your questions up your ass, you jackbooted thug'. Both of those are just words, and words don't hurt people. But when you get told to get out of the car and turn around to get cuffed, as Nike says, Just Do It.

[AMC]

The following isn't directed at anyone specific, but if you feel like I'm talking to/about you, maybe take a look in the mirror.

I am honestly shocked by some of the LE replies in this thread that basically boil down to "well he should have complied harder." Do you not see how that sounds to people who aren't cops? Writing off the actions of the LT as "looking for a payday" or "disrespectful to authority" when you have no idea of what was going through his head in that moment?

I know some people have pointed out how bad those two cops fucked up, but those seem to be in the minority as a whole raft of everyone else tries to finds reasons to justify what was one of the shittiest conducted high risk traffic stops I have ever seen. I have seen 19 year kids fresh out of the AF Security Forces school do better high-risk stops than that. Hell, I would even buy that the actual stop itself and running it as a high risk stop was initially justified, but after that? This was some straight up keystone cops shit, and it's a fucking embarrassment to anyone who has ever worn a badge.

Christ.

I dont at all think that a minority of cops think the officers handled it badly. Everyone in my office had the same reaction: "What a dick."

As to the young Lieutenant, everyone has had the following reaction: "What a dick."

I'm with Trooper224 on this. Nobody looks "good" in this shitshow. It's just a matter of how much shit ended up on them, and where.

[okie john]

News to me. Sounds more like cops and military service members that are being unnecessarily aggressive/breaking the law don't get along anywhere.

To be fair, I was talking about Ft. Bragg, NC, and Ft. Benning, GA. Assume you’re dealing with infantrymen, airborne troops, Rangers, Special Forces, wannabees, and/or any combination of those plus Marine recon guys and SEALs visiting for schools. Testosterone was off the charts. I certainly didn’t trust anyone I didn’t know, and I wasn’t always comfortable with some of the guys I did know.


Okie John

[TC215]

The following isn't directed at anyone specific, but if you feel like I'm talking to/about you, maybe take a look in the mirror.

I am honestly shocked by some of the LE replies in this thread that basically boil down to "well he should have complied harder." Do you not see how that sounds to people who aren't cops? Writing off the actions of the LT as "looking for a payday" or "disrespectful to authority" when you have no idea of what was going through his head in that moment?

I know some people have pointed out how bad those two cops fucked up, but those seem to be in the minority as a whole raft of everyone else tries to finds reasons to justify what was one of the shittiest conducted high risk traffic stops I have ever seen. I have seen 19 year kids fresh out of the AF Security Forces school do better high-risk stops than that. Hell, I would even buy that the actual stop itself and running it as a high risk stop was initially justified, but after that? This was some straight up keystone cops shit, and it's a fucking embarrassment to anyone who has ever worn a badge.

Christ.

Since I’m the one that said he was looking for a payday, I’m guessing it is somewhat directed at me.

Some of us were talking about this at the office today, and the consensus was that it was a couple dickheads being dickheads.

As for the payday part...As others have said, the LT wasn’t scared. Before I worked narcotics investigations full-time, I spent a few years as an interstate interdiction officer. I’ve made thousands of traffic stops. I’ve seen people scared because they thought they were getting tickets, scared because they had warrants/dope, and scared because they feared the police. I am quite familiar with the way people act during the course of a traffic stop, including what the physical manifestations of nervousness and fear look like. I have given expert testimony in federal court about behavioral responses and indicators exhibited by the motoring public during the course of traffic stops. I feel well qualified to day...Lieutenant was looking for a payday.

[Joe in PNG]

If he was looking for a payday, and if that's a not rare thing, I would humbly suggest that in the future, officers need to take that into consideration in regards to future interactions during the course of their duties.

Extra doubly so now that most interaction can and almost certainly will be filmed, and posted for the world to see.

Point to ponder- would the officers had been as dickish in that exact situation if they were being filmed by a LivePD or Cops film crew?

[TC215]

If he was looking for a payday, and if that's a not rare thing, I would humbly suggest that in the future, officers need to take that into consideration in regards to future interactions during the course of their duties.

Extra doubly so now that most interaction can and almost certainly will be filmed, and posted for the world to see.

Point to ponder- would the officers had been as dickish in that exact situation if they were being filmed by a LivePD or Cops film crew?

I think about every officer is well-aware that they’re being filmed all the time.

And COPS makes officers act like jackasses, not dicks. There’s a difference.

[Hambo]

I am honestly shocked by some of the LE replies in this thread that basically boil down to "well he should have complied harder."

What would your life advice be for people who run into a dickish, angry, out of control cop?

[Wise_A]

"well he should have complied harder."

He barely complied until he got a faceful of spicy air. He drove a mile before he pulled over--time during which the deputies involved had no idea how many people were in the vehicle or what he was doing. That's enough time that the pursuit disclaimer got read. Then he stuck his hands on the windowsill (the only point of compliance) and argued with them. So yeah--he was a dumbass.

Now let's consider this from the perspective of people who are not dumbasses. And for the time being, we'll overlook the whole "drove a mile while getting lit up" thing, we'll just pretend the cops are angry dumbasses for no particular reason. Given that situation, what problem are you going to solve by being a dumbass and not complying? "Hey, this cop is being an angry dick. I bet that arguing with him will totally chill out this situation!".

I mean, if it wasn't a traffic stop, and those weren't cops, just regular angry dicks, wouldn't de-escalation be preferable to sitting around and arguing with them?