RFI: WACO seige/massacre

[TGS]

Is that where this damn virus came from??

Son of a .....

hahaha, wow! Good catch. Totally wrote that without realizing it, we just had a covid meeting today, trying to get vaccinations for the 100+ police I run here. Must've been on my mind!

So, correction: davidians.

[UNK]

Most of the books, commentary, and especially the miniseries are extremely fictionalized. People have stated stuff on P-F.com Waco threads in the past that aren't even supported by witness interviews with the Branch Covidians themselves.....so, be careful what you read.

Absolutely. No way was my reply in compliance with the “trustworthy” request by the OP. Ive never researched the issue so I have no idea to the accuracy. I think any reasonable person after having watched it would be in doubt as to the authenticity. My apologies for the contribution.

[Odin Bravo One]

HRT is a genuine clown show. For the amount of tax payer money wasted on that utterly useless organization of “Elite” Hostage Rescue Team, one would think they would be a legitimate entity. Badasses when battling women and children. A complete shit show when faced with a handful of inept, but dedicated military aged males.

Doubtful there is anything in print useful for an unbiased account of the events and how they unfolded.

[Bergeron]

Doubtful there is anything in print useful for an unbiased account of the events and how they unfolded.

And more's the tragedy for the accuracy of that statement. Given the body count of the outcome, I'd really like something accurate and objective to analyze and learn from, but there's nothing on this topic that I trust in any sort of way. Too much interest one way or another in painting a picture.

"The facts of history are fairly agreed upon and change only infrequently and slightly, it is instead the interpretation of that history and those facts that is the subject of debate and divisiveness" said the Civil War park ranger.

I'm still taken aback that the Administration would see fit to advance a Waco-involved individual into ATF leadership.

[Oldherkpilot]

HRT is a genuine clown show. For the amount of tax payer money wasted on that utterly useless organization of “Elite” Hostage Rescue Team, one would think they would be a legitimate entity. Badasses when battling women and children. A complete shit show when faced with a handful of inept, but dedicated military aged males.

Doubtful there is anything in print useful for an unbiased account of the events and how they unfolded.

Wait, are you talking about the Hostage Reduction Team (HRT)? Took me 20 years to regain any respect for the FBI and then the HRC fluster cluck erased it all.

[Gun Mutt]

This one that will make you angry, Waco: Rules of Engagement

[SD]

Years back Linda Thompson "The Big Lie" was a documentary style video that questioned a lot of the information and the accuracy of the information. It presented a much different story line.

[Borderland]

And more's the tragedy for the accuracy of that statement. Given the body count of the outcome, I'd really like something accurate and objective to analyze and learn from, but there's nothing on this topic that I trust in any sort of way. Too much interest one way or another in painting a picture.

"The facts of history are fairly agreed upon and change only infrequently and slightly, it is instead the interpretation of that history and those facts that is the subject of debate and divisiveness" said the Civil War park ranger.

I'm still taken aback that the Administration would see fit to advance a Waco-involved individual into ATF leadership.

Janet Reno was the one who was responsible for the attack on the compound. It wouldn't have happened if she hadn't green lighted the operation. IIRC she got some bad intel from the FBI which doesn't surprise me. Ruby Ridge was another FBI debacle. Seems the ATF/FBI can't go too many years without a FUBAR operation. Probably due for another one sometime soon.

[CWM11B]

Janet Reno was the one who was responsible for the attack on the compound. It wouldn't have happened if she hadn't green lighted the operation. IIRC she got some bad intel from the FBI which doesn't surprise me. Ruby Ridge was another FBI debacle. Seems the ATF/FBI can't go too many years without a FUBAR operation. Probably due for another one sometime soon.

I've got plenty to beef about the FBI, and don't respect or trust them anymore. However, they got brought in to clean up messes not of their making. RR was an ATF screwup, but initial confrontation was between USMS and Weaver's family. Same thing for Waco (minus the USMS angle). Not long after the events, I went to a day long brief of both incidents. An ATF guy who was at Waco and wounded pulled no punches in lambasting pretty much the whole operation, from the SAC all the way to Reno and POTUS.

An FBI guy spoke on RR and laid out a bunch of info that was not covered in the media. He was also on scene but not HRT. He was pretty candid with things that went wrong. Personally, I believe these cases were clownshoes and should have resulted in a massive smackdown of ATF. Weaver should have been left alone after he initially refused to play by refusing to make an SBS for their informant. The level they pushed him would have gotten the case thrown out IMO as an entrapment. Same on Koresh. If it was so important to get him, they had plenty of opportunities to do a low profile arrest away from the compund, but the Clinton admin wanted a show. The ATF guy put that out there.

No minds are going to be changed about these events. I see them as combinations of malfeasance, incompetence, arrogance, ego, and poor decisions on multiple fronts converging, and with some factors, on both sides. And it resulted in a lot of people dying that didn't need to and should not have.I believe the government was wrong in these cases, but some of the personnel involved just got served a big shit sandwich. I base that on actually meeting a couple of dudes that were involved in the events as well as a conversation I had with Weaver himself once.

[HCM]

I've got plenty to beef about the FBI, and don't respect or trust them anymore. However, they got brought in to clean up messes not of their making. RR was an ATF screwup, but initial confrontation was between USMS and Weaver's family. Same thing for Waco (minus the USMS angle). Not long after the events, I went to a day long brief of both incidents. An ATF guy who was at Waco and wounded pulled no punches in lambasting pretty much the whole operation, from the SAC all the way to Reno and POTUS.

An FBI guy spoke on RR and laid out a bunch of info that was not covered in the media. He was also on scene but not HRT. He was pretty candid with things that went wrong. Personally, I believe these cases were clownshoes and should have resulted in a massive smackdown of ATF. Weaver should have been left alone after he initially refused to play by refusing to make an SBS for their informant. The level they pushed him would have gotten the case thrown out IMO as an entrapment. Same on Koresh. If it was so important to get him, they had plenty of opportunities to do a low profile arrest away from the compund, but the Clinton admin wanted a show. The ATF guy put that out there.

No minds are going to be changed about these events. I see them as combinations of malfeasance, incompetence, arrogance, ego, and poor decisions on multiple fronts converging, and with some factors, on both sides. And it resulted in a lot of people dying that didn't need to and should not have.I believe the government was wrong in these cases, but some of the personnel involved just got served a big shit sandwich. I base that on actually meeting a couple of dudes that were involved in the events as well as a conversation I had with Weaver himself once.

Pretty much. RR started with ATF wanting to recruit Randy Weaver then trying to entrap him. At which point they obtained an arrest warrant which ATF could have tried to serve themselves but instead handed off to USMS. Once federal LEOs (in this case USMS) were killed / wounded FBI had to get involved as they have primary jurisdiction on assault/ murder of FLEOs.

Again with Waco, which is now THE example of how not to do things, ATF could have handled things differently but wanted a show, as evidenced by the TV news crew they brought with them. But again, once FLEOs were assaulted /killed FBI had to get involved due to primary jurisdiction on AFO (Assault on Federal Officer) cases.

An example of the FBI getting a similar situation right would be the 1985 siege of the CSA (covenant, sword, and arm of the Lord) compound in AR in 1985 which was resolved peacefully.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.washi...-of-csa-siege/