Well that's heavily dependent on the rest of the circumstances in which the hypothetical you kills someone, isn't it? In this hypothetical, are you a police officer trying to arrest this 90% organ failure victim, and are they actively and violently resisting you for 10 minutes before you finally get them restrained? If not, it's not exactly analogous to the Floyd/Chauvin situation, is it? Details matter.Originally Posted by Mystery
Touche'
I'm bothered by a few things... well, a lot actually, but this one is sticking out. It bothers me that out of state big firm lawyers were parachuted in "pro bono" to assist the Prosecution. I don't know what the official professional ethics* are for the US Bar Association, but it's a bad look if one wants to at least pretend to the old "presumption of innocence" thing.
I could understand the Feds sending some people to backstop the prosecution, but this other thing is chilling.
- "A Man For All Seasons"“William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”
Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”
William Roper: “Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!”
Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
*lawyer jokes and professional courtesy from vultures and sharks aside
"You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
"I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
Sigh, I made the mistake of reading the comments. I’m in Columbus for another 5 weeks at the OSP Academy. Feel sorry for the CPD guys and OSP. CPD has had a rough couple days for reasons that’ll never make the news.
Formerly known as xpd54.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com
Like many large organizations, problems often get shuffled instead of fixed. Especially if someone up the chain likes them, or doesn't want the blemish of having an underling fired. Just like the military, there's some fucking idiots who make it on board and then nobody wants to nut up and bounce them. If you're low in the chain and try to bounce them, keep your originals. The paperwork above you may not look anything like what you submitted. So I hear.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Is there anyone here with a solid knowledge of MN criminal law?
Out here, if the defendant was convicted of 2nd Degree Murder, any lesser but included charge would have been off of the table. How can someone be convicted of Murder 2, Murder 3, and Manslaughter 2? It looks like he was convicted of three separate deaths.
Last edited by Erick Gelhaus; 04-20-2021 at 11:53 PM.
And a more appropriate quote: "I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham. I move for a mistrial."
"You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
"I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
Regardless of what the next few years look like, there is one thing I feel like needs to happen in the long-term as a result of the past year. I feel like there needs to be a substantial increase in the possible criminal charges and severity of sentencing for public officials abusing their office. By "officials", I mean elected or appointed bureaucrats. Willfully disregarding the law. Selective enforcement that dis-proportionally benefits particular demographics (political or otherwise). Creating an environment that destroys local economy and substantially increases crime... You name it. Currently, the sentiment I'm hearing from a LOT of people on both the right and left (mostly center-right, center-left, libertarian, classical conservative, classical liberal... essentially none of the extremes lol) is they have this perception that there is no accountability or significant repercussions for politicians on the left, and the "justice" only goes one way.
When I think back to past instances of politicians that have been charged and found guilty of serious crimes, I can't think of many in the past couple decades that stand as a significant "warning" to their peers. One that comes to mind is Ray Nagin (10yrs), former Mayor of NOLA. Probably should have been far longer IMO.
From my layman's perspective, in a "more perfect union", I feel like there are probably quite a few candidates out there that have more than met the justification to spend a few decades in jail if found guilty.
Administrator for PatRogers.org
I think there might be some misunderstanding here on @Mystery's part. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since English isn't his first language.
Mystery, what they're saying isn't that someone who is unhealthy is "free game" to willfully kill without reason. What they're saying is that Floyd's own actions led to his death.
Take for instance the Eric Garner case, where a 300+lbs male who was massively unhealthy decided to fight a police officer upon being arrested. Did the police officer kill him by physically restraining him, or did the subject kill himself through his own poor choices of subjecting his cardiovascular system to stresses it could not handle?
What about my cousin, who arrived on a scene for a medical call and was attacked by the subject who had a deadly amount of PCP in his system? Did my cousin kill him by restraining him, or did the subject kill himself by taking a substantial amount of PCP and then getting in a fight with a police officer, subjecting his cardiovascular system to stresses it could not handle?
How about a theoretical if those two examples don't make sense; a man jumps out of a building. He falls and is impaled on scaffolding that was being constructed by a worker. Did the worker kill the man, or did the man kill himself by deciding to jump out of a window, and place himself in a circumstance where death or serious bodily injury is reasonably expected?
The single most common denominator in these "controversial" uses of force is that someone decided to flight/fight the police while doing something illegal....however, society has been convinced that it's the police officer who is always responsible for the decedent's actions. As far as Chauvin, I can reasonably see MN's Murder III statute or manslaughter sticking due to continued restraint of the subject past when a reasonable officer would consider it necessary, and especially past when other officers reported he had no pulse. How that reaches to Murder 1 or 2 is beyond me, however, and in my opinion can only be explained by the fact that society has shifted the blame of criminals' actions onto police.
It's a losing proposition for police in America.
Last edited by TGS; 04-21-2021 at 04:46 AM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Thanks for having the patience to explain it better than I did. I admit that Mystery's argument style in several threads has tried my patience recently, and that may bias me against him, so I appreciate you providing a more thorough explanation that hopefully he'll be able to understand.
I'm pretty much in line with your thinking, except that I was expecting it to be either only a Manslaughter 2 conviction or a complete acquittal.
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