Chauvin trial

[blues]

I think I read that Chauvin had some other procedural issues before he choked out Floyd. That would fall on the dept adm for not taking care of business. But I think the city already said they made a mistake and they paid for it.

I was always cognizant of the fact that if I were personally sued for something I did by direction of my supervisor, the county wouldn't be there for my defense. A few times I got legal council from a prosecutor who I knew regarding a county policy. Seems one policy was in violation of state code. I had a letter from the prosecutor that stated such and made my supervisors aware that I needed to conduct myself in a manner as to not bring legal action against myself or the county regardless what code they were operating with. The issue was trespass while conducting official county business. It took a few years but they finally changed the policy.

I've been in the position of refusing to carry out what I considered an unlawful order, and when brought before the Branch Chief to explain myself, the supe had tried to turn the tables by saying that he was the one trying to "stop" me from doing that which I had refused to do. I told the Branch Chief to fire me if he believed the piece of shit.

On another occasion, my partner and I were questioned by the SAC and DSAC as to why a guy who had made a big pest of himself wasn't brought in in handcuffs and bloodied up. My reply to that was "and you'd have backed us up all the way, right?"...to which the reply was crickets.

It took virtually nothing at all for me to have two relatively open and shut internal affairs investigations. (Cleared on both, without substance.) This was 20 years ago or so. Nowadays, it's way worse.

Better have your shit wired tight before you leave the office, precinct, squad room, what have you...because very few folks will have your back when the chips are down.

[Borderland]

This is, sadly, a reasonable concern.

Which leads to the 2nd order effect: a whole bunch of people keeping to themselves who feel like Chauvin—dickhole though he may be—got thrown under the bus in stellar fashion.

Which leads to the 3rd order effect: nobody wanting to police these cities.

And so forth...

Color blind robo cops is the answer. Just send them to the crusher if they malfunction.

[ccmdfd]

Better have your shit wired tight before you leave the office, precinct, squad room, what have you...because very few folks will have your back when the chips are down.

Seems like that should be printed up and then posted in every Squad room, Precinct, office, Etc, Etc.

Sad that it's that way

[TC215]

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the defense lawyer seems to present his defense points to the prosecution witnesses, who then disagree with him. The prosecutor follows up and takes the defense lawyer's point apart.

The defense experts will have a hard time bringing up these points later. I've testified a few times and was told that you should not ask a question that you don't know how the witness will answer.

If the defense is going to focus on Floyd dropping dead by coincidence while being restrained, meaning he would have dropped dead at the same time if not restrained in some alternative universe, that's going to be an expert battle. The qualifications of the experts might be a fight.

They have taken the rest of the day off.

I think the defense attorney is doing a pretty good job. There's only so much you can do on cross-- I believe he's saving a lot for his case in chief.


And, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that there's a good chance Floyd would have died on his stomach whether Chauvin was on him or not.

[Totem Polar]

And, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that there's a good chance Floyd would have died on his stomach whether Chauvin was on him or not.

Since it’s the internet, I’ll just chime in and say that I agree with you. Chauvin being a bit of an abomination as a law enforcement officer, and still not being responsible for Floyd’s death are hardly exclusive situations. I suspect that Floyd might have stopped breathing in the Mercedes SUV down the road, or sitting on the can later, or in a Denny’s, or wherever. I suppose we will see, as was noted above, how the battle of expert witnesses pans out.

[Borderland]

Seems like that should be printed up and then posted in every Squad room, Precinct, office, Etc, Etc.

Sad that it's that way

I loved Hill Street Blues. Probably saw every episode.

https://youtu.be/Jmg86CRBBtw

[olstyn]

Concur.

Is it possible you or Lex Luthier can give us a sense of the scale of the area around the courthouse, i.e. is it a downtown building or suburban, or what sort of area it is? Are there specific public areas (a la the "CHOP") where The Mob is already gathering that might be used as touch points? Just trying to get a sense of the lay of the land as it were.

Best of luck. Perhaps time to plan that vacation.

The courthouse is in downtown Minneapolis, and is currently surrounded by National Guard troops, barriers, and razor wire. I haven't been past there recently and don't have any need to go downtown with any frequency, so I don't plan to go until some time after the trial is over. My attitude toward downtown Minneapolis in general has shifted over time. I used to bike through there at night without worry, but I was in my 20s and "invincible" at the time. As I've gotten older/wiser and things have gotten weirder/woker, I've gotten less and less happy about being outdoors there at night.

As far as where "The Mob" is gathering goes, I would expect that in addition to the courthouse, the "autonomous zone" at the intersection where Floyd died will be one of those spots if it's not already, but I haven't had reason to go through that area in over a year and would likely give it a wide berth even if it meant lengthening whatever journey I was on, so I can't give you a firsthand account of what's going on there.

[Coyotesfan97]

I loved Hill Street Blues. Probably saw every episode.

https://youtu.be/Jmg86CRBBtw

That’s signature worthy material right there

A lot of briefing rooms have a poster in them with that scene and quote.

[olstyn]

I'm going from memory, but wasn't there a "Murder 3" or something similar that would equate to manslaughter in most jurisdictions? Something like manslaughter + 'depraved heart' = Murder 3 but no requirement for premeditation?

Also going from memory, my layman's understanding of the Murder 3 charge from an article I read on it a week or two ago was that it requires intent, but not necessarily intent directed at a specific person. It struck me as very strange, especially given that there is also a Murder 2 charge (intent to kill a specific person, but no premeditation IIRC, vs Murder 1 being intent + premeditation) and a Manslaughter 2 charge (intent not required, but negligence or similar required, again IIRC).

My not-a-lawyer thoughts on the charges really haven't changed much based on each new piece of info I've read - I keep thinking that the negligence angle is likely to result in a conviction on the manslaughter charge unless the defense is able to establish reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death, presumably via the fentanyl/meth speedball angle, but proving intent for the murder charge(s) is going to be difficult.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Given that anyone who testifies will be broadcast on every form of media known to man, I would be shocked if anyone would be willing to testify on his behalf. Can you imagine how you would be ostracized and publicly shamed for even saying he seemed like a 'decent' person?

One of the named (likely) defense expert witnesses - not a character witness - is someone I've known for over thirty years in a professional capacity. Don't know what all he'll be addressing.

Once the "feelz" witnesses are done with, and it seems they are, it'll be interesting to see the "professionals" - the doctors as well as police procedures and use of force experts - on both sides testify. I'm looking forward to what really was taught in the department's training, along with the policies, to be laid out.