RFI: Subaru Maintenance

[Welder]

I always thought Subarus were sort of ugly and/or weird. Then I needed a commuter vehicle for a particular jobsite I had where I could leave my big truck parked like a huge toolbox inside a demo'd out factory for about 2 years. The outside of the jobsite was just muddy roads.

I ended up getting an 04 Outback stationwagon with the 2.5L and automatic, and even though I've always thought that generation was butt-ugly, it won me over with it's traction. That system was AWD with a limited-slip rear end, and that car with regular all-season tires would go wherever I wanted on that site. Most recently I took it with the same tires (now worn-out with 40k plus miles on them) all the way up to Reddish Knob just after our first big snow. It might not've been smart, but hey, it went. The snow was drifted over a foot deep at some points, and always 8" or more, it was all uphill, and the car just kept going.

There's a certain subset of the population who *does* have use for an AWD vehicle, it's just not nearly as many people as who actually have one.

The older (non-turbo especially) EJ25 engines had the head gasket issues which required a swap to MLS gaskets to stop the leak from reoccurring. My 04 has had that leak since the day I got it (it's an external leak, so you just add oil and coolant every now and then -- no danger of catastrophic damage unless you let it get low on fluids) and aside from a burning oil smell when you're sitting at a stoplight with the cabin fan on, it's been fine. I had plans to replace the head gaskets, but instead just put a timing belt on at 200k a couple weeks ago and let it keep leaking.

It has a wheel bearing making noise in the front, and it needed a right front axleshaft when I got it. Just put front and rear brake pads on it. No other issues in the period I've owned it from 162k to 201k miles. So there's a 40k mile run on a $2k car with pretty much nothing required. As long as you add fluids.

Downside is that while the 4EAT automatic is super reliable, it's also sluggish and the engine isn't too powerful either. I get 23 mpg in that car. I would buy another one, but from the next generation which I think looks decent and with the H6 engine instead, which doesn't have the head gasket issues and which also has a timing chain instead of the belt.

My second Subaru story is just starting. I just bought my Mom and Dad's 2015 Forester with 167k miles on it. They bought a new 2021 Forester. This one I got has the CVT which I was a little scared of but which is working great so far. It has the updated 2.5 engine, now called the FB25 and without head gasket issues anymore. I think the FB came out in 2011 or so. They also got rid of the timing belt and went with a chain in this one. Win. The early ones were known for using oil, up until at least 2014 and possibly including 2015 too. Knock on wood, this one doesn't.

I've run 2 tanks of gas through it so far. The CVT is the real deal when it comes to gas mileage. Remember my Outback got 23 mpg? Well I took this one on a 300 mile round trip at 75 mph and despite the increased frontal area of it, and despite that it has a whole ton more acceleration than the old Outback, it also got 26 mpg. I double-checked the digital display with a calculator at the pump, I never trust the computer's mileage. The next tank was from driving around locally, crossing the Blue Ridge mountains etc, and this time I got 32 mpg. Speed kills fuel mileage on a vehicle with bad aero like the Forester.

These are both anecdotes, I know, and also don't forget that I do my own repairs so I don't pay labor for things like wheel bearings which the Forester is notorious for going through. I tend to buy high-mileage vehicles and fix them up rather than dumping big money into newer vehicles. The only one I've been burned on was a Honda, actually, a 2000 Civic Si. So of course most people's mileage varies from mine.

[camel]

We live near a road up to Silver Star Mountain. We go up there once or twice a year, and I'm cautious with my full-size truck because it's horrible. It is the quintessential spot for Subaru drivers from Portland to get in way over their heads. I am not exaggerating in the least little bit when I say every time I go we see new pieces of plastic trim that have been broken off.

I've seen several people get their Subaru stuck. Some of them were well and truly stuck, and needed help or extrication equipment to get out. They of course do not carry extrication equipment. Many of them just don't have a clue how the systems work on your car, leading to this:

"Can I see your owner's manual? I need to look up how to to turn off your traction control system."

"Why do we want to turn off my traction control? I'M STUCK!"

"Look can you just humor me? The worst that's going to happen is you're still going to be stuck and have to call a tow truck."

"Can't you pull me out?"

"No. I'm concerned that I will break your front fascia and possibly wreck your steering. Let's try pressing some buttons first."

I have learned to get out of the way, because sometimes a "stuck" Subaru will take off like a rocket once you turn of the TCS.

Yea. Even the dealer tells you to turn off TCS in inclement weather. One of the reasons subarus run through rear brakes on the tough drivers is the traction control keeping it in line. They are mountain goats at capability when driven right.

[camel]

I work in the industry and the shortage has led to some relaxation in the specs on parts. That is true. The "rest of the story" is that much of the time the substitute parts are the same parts, without all of the automotive traceability requirements. A simplistic version of how this works. A semiconductor company can make an automotive part using a different process, primarily with concerns about heat and vibration, or make all parts on the automotive process and not do the automotive (PPAP) paperwork on the industrial parts. A lot of new parts are designed to use the automotive process even if the parts never make it into a vehicle. As long as commercial-grade (consumer electronics) parts are not being used, the parts are the same.

That being said, this is about the worst time to need to buy a new vehicle because demand is high, component prices are increasing, and vehicle supply is constrained. If you can wait, it will save you money. Our plan right now is not to buy until 2023.

This I have to say is something people should pay attention to. Thanks.

[olstyn]

If the weather is bad enough that a FWD vehicle has issues, AWD is not the answer.

That will handle any reasonable snow and ice accumulations. Beyond that point, the answer is to not drive.

Speaking as someone who has lived in MN for the last ~30 years, AWD may not be "the answer," but it sure as hell is a big advantage, and it greatly extends the envelope of what counts as "reasonable" snow and ice accumulations. The two AWD Audis I've owned could be quite happily driven through any amount of snow < ground clearance of the car even just with good all seasons (my personal preference is Continental Extreme Contact DWS), and with even a tiny amount of skill behind the wheel are nearly magical about staying pointed in the direction the driver intends. The FWD VW I owned in between them, while objectively a good car, was noticeably worse in every possible winter driving performance metric (and some summer metrics as well) on the same tires.

[Lester Polfus]

@psalms144.1


Unsurprising. Not all AWDs are the same, regardless of the AWD badge on the back. The vehicle you were driving was, in fact, FWD with extremely limited AWD capability that would only engage once the car was already stuck.

Subaru, Porsche, traditional Audi Quattro and a few select others are the only "real" AWD systems and perform totally different than what you were driving. They can send as much power as needed to any wheel, and would send power to all wheels all the time, which reduces the chance of the vehicle from getting stuck to begin with. The vehicle you were driving is physically impossible of doing this with the AWD system it had.

I personally find it very grating when people say, "well I drove a Shitbox XYZ and its AWD didn't do anything" when the conversation isn't about shitboxes. Would you go into a thread about quality duty AR15s and say, "Well I had a Double Star AR15 and it was shit, so..." when the conversation is about Colts and BCMs?

Hmmm. I don't remember my mid-90s Legacy being earth shaking during the 2008 Portland Snowpocalypse, but that may have been a function of the craptastic tires it was wearing when I bought it off the shady car lot. I didn't get stuck, so there is that.

Do you think it would be fair to say that unless you are going to buy a Subaru, Porsche, Quattro or "select few others" that an AWD system juice is rarely worth the squeeze?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm genuinely curious as both your knowledge and your passion for AWD systems outstrips mine.

[JRB]

Is this because of the controller or "brain" that is present in some of the newer Haldex systems? Audi claims their newest generation Haldex system that is replacing the traditional Quattro can send more than 50% power to the rear, which I don't know how that's physically possible with Haldex....oh, and also that it can do so preemptively based on driving conditions, rather than relying on mechanical "lock" (probably incorrect term) from the front wheels physically spinning to engage the rear. I'm not sure how either of those points are true without a center diff which is not present on Haldex AWD systems, but I'm not skilled in the ways of black magic. I assume that system is becoming present in other Haldex equipped brands as the new model redesigns flush out the older models, but it's relatively new and I haven't heard much about how good it actually is.

The Toyota system incorporates the front diff, center diff, and transfer case all into the main transaxle housing in the engine bay. Many models still offer an electric center diff lock, even the lowly Rav4 last I checked. The traction control system honestly improves on this by using the ABS to selectively pinch the brakes individually on wheels with wheelspin. The speed, fidelity, and capability of that system is frankly astonishing and shouldn't be compared with other systems that aren't as sorted using the same concept. Toyota's done a lot of work using similar methods in their descent control and 'simulated' diff lockers in the FJ which frankly work every bit as well as a traditional locker for everything except truly wild rock crawling.

Ultimately, an AWD is an AWD system and the only thing that separates them is the types of differentials used. Haldex is a gimmick that's mostly contained to other shitty European brands like VW, Saab, Land Rover, and Volvo. I can't speak on Honda AWD stuff since I've rarely seen it but I can 100% say that Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru all still use a proper three-differential AWD setup that is at worst 80/20 in front/rear torque bias by default (older Subaru autos) and are collectively not afflicted with the fuckery of which you speak.

I'll say this - I'm a big fan of Subaru's manual trans powertrains, aside from the mechanical weakness found when assholes like me try shoving 500hp through four sticky tires, the Subaru manual trans AWD systems really are fantastic. They were ahead of their time and continue to kick ass, in no small part due to the fact they're usually a 50/50 front/rear torque bias by default. That alone prevents a lot of the 'turn off the traction control' sorts of idiocy that Lester Polfus is discussing. Manual trans Subarus are usually the ones found on their roof in the snow because some driver saw a few too many Ken Block videos.

But the CVT's are garbage because of their wildly inconsistent, roll-of-the-dice failure rates. They're a massive expense to replace, and mechanics like me hate them because the bulk of a massive repair bill will be for our cost on a new transmission and we'll lose our ass on Subaru book time to replace it and fuck all around with making the car work happily like a car again.

TGS, I'm genuinely glad your pair of Subarus have been trouble free, and that you like them. Same for Welder's experience with his recently acquired one. But I never would have recommended them. Sometimes a cheap ass PSA AR works fantastically well.

[TGS]

Do you think it would be fair to say that unless you are going to buy a Subaru, Porsche, Quattro or "select few others" that an AWD system juice is rarely worth the squeeze?

I think that's a fair take on it if a given person is looking at buying a car specifically for the AWD.

And, to round it out so that nobody gets the wrong idea, Subarus will have increased maintenance costs over the other generic soccer mom brands, but the publicly available failure rates for CVT don't support that they're particularly problematic outside of specific model years. Moreover, I've recommended someone on the forum not buy a Subaru because he was living in Arizona and using it as a daily highway driver....literally the opposite use case for a Subaru where it loses all of its advantages and only amplifies their issues......but I'm also not looking at a Subaru for my next car because my current use doesn't really justify the added costs, regardless of the fact that between my wife and I we've had 5 Subarus (2002 Outback, 2005 WRX STi, 2009 Outback, 2013 Outback, and a 2019 Outback).

With that said, I'm going to say my last piece for this thread: there's lots of advice coming from people in the south and southwest about Subarus, AWD, and driving in snow (the last part being particularly funny).

If you're looking to buy an AWD car for driving in consistent snow/muddy conditions, look at what people who actually live in those climes are buying (hint: the answer is Subaru). People who say, "just stay home" probably don't have the relevant experience to using vehicles in those conditions. And, of course, if all you're dealing with is an annual dusting or two on well maintained infrastructure.....then no, you don't need a Subaru.

[farscott]

I would not assume that current location in the south means the poster has little experience in winter driving.

[Trigger]

The Toyota system incorporates the front diff, center diff, and transfer case all into the main transaxle housing in the engine bay. Many models still offer an electric center diff lock, even the lowly Rav4 last I checked. The traction control system honestly improves on this by using the ABS to selectively pinch the brakes individually on wheels with wheelspin. The speed, fidelity, and capability of that system is frankly astonishing and shouldn't be compared with other systems that aren't as sorted using the same concept. Toyota's done a lot of work using similar methods in their descent control and 'simulated' diff lockers in the FJ which frankly work every bit as well as a traditional locker for everything except truly wild rock crawling.

Ultimately, an AWD is an AWD system and the only thing that separates them is the types of differentials used. Haldex is a gimmick that's mostly contained to other shitty European brands like VW, Saab, Land Rover, and Volvo. I can't speak on Honda AWD stuff since I've rarely seen it but I can 100% say that Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru all still use a proper three-differential AWD setup that is at worst 80/20 in front/rear torque bias by default (older Subaru autos) and are collectively not afflicted with the fuckery of which you speak.

I'll say this - I'm a big fan of Subaru's manual trans powertrains, aside from the mechanical weakness found when assholes like me try shoving 500hp through four sticky tires, the Subaru manual trans AWD systems really are fantastic. They were ahead of their time and continue to kick ass, in no small part due to the fact they're usually a 50/50 front/rear torque bias by default. That alone prevents a lot of the 'turn off the traction control' sorts of idiocy that Lester Polfus is discussing. Manual trans Subarus are usually the ones found on their roof in the snow because some driver saw a few too many Ken Block videos.

But the CVT's are garbage because of their wildly inconsistent, roll-of-the-dice failure rates. They're a massive expense to replace, and mechanics like me hate them because the bulk of a massive repair bill will be for our cost on a new transmission and we'll lose our ass on Subaru book time to replace it and fuck all around with making the car work happily like a car again.

TGS, I'm genuinely glad your pair of Subarus have been trouble free, and that you like them. Same for Welder's experience with his recently acquired one. But I never would have recommended them. Sometimes a cheap ass PSA AR works fantastically well.

Is it bad for me to say that I would really like a Subaru STI (manual transmission) with a Crosstrek suspension for winter driving?

[olstyn]

Is it bad for me to say that I would really like a Subaru STI (manual transmission) with a Crosstrek suspension for winter driving?

Why would that be bad? I'm sure you're far from the only person who thinks that would be a cool option. When I first learned that the Crosstrek existed, I kind of assumed there was a version with the STI (or at least, base WRX) motor/trans in it, and was surprised to find out that no such beast existed.