RFI: Subaru Maintenance

[Elwin]

My 2015 Forester just passed 100k. I bought it used when it had about 60k on it. It had an electronics issue with the keyless entry system that was just crap luck but wasn’t a huge deal to fix. It also had an axle shaft go bad of all things, but that was a relatively affordable fix that was also covered under a 100k powertrain warranty, and was unrelated to tire rotation as far as I know. I have had no other problems and don’t do any maintenance on it that I wouldn’t do on another vehicle. It’s by far my favorite car out of all the ones I’ve driven on a regular basis. It is a CVT for whatever that’s worth.

Also, driving it in snow isn’t just better than other vehicles. It’s downright fun. Especially if there aren’t other cars on the road at the time.

[farscott]

I really dislike buying something based on the less than 10% usage case. In other words, I do not add cost for an issue that I may see only once or twice a year, especially if the issue is not that severe. With modern traction control systems, I fail to see the advantage of AWD for "occasional ice/snow". If the weather is bad enough that a FWD vehicle has issues, AWD is not the answer.

I would just get a 2021 FWD Sienna and save the cost of the AWD option. The new Siennas are hybrids with an electric motor at each front wheel. That will handle any reasonable snow and ice accumulations. Beyond that point, the answer is to not drive. The AWD adds a third motor for both rear wheels. That is really not needed for snow and ice. The FWD Sienna should deliver combined fuel economy above 30 MPG with Toyota reliability.

[OlongJohnson]

My sample of one 2005 OB XT turbo manual says it's been nothing but trouble. And absolutely miserable to spin wrenches on - even worse than anything German I've experienced. Sure does drive nicely when it's running, though.

[farscott]

I'd also strongly consider a CPO 2019 or 2020 model if you can find one that suits your tastes. Industry friends that work for two very different major car manufacturers tell me that the worldwide semiconductor shortage and other COVID-19 related sourcing issues for electronic and mechanical components have led them to loosen restrictions on QC/QA across the board in current production to keep up demand. Meaning any pre-COVID production date example of a vehicle should be strongly favored, if possible.

I work in the industry and the shortage has led to some relaxation in the specs on parts. That is true. The "rest of the story" is that much of the time the substitute parts are the same parts, without all of the automotive traceability requirements. A simplistic version of how this works. A semiconductor company can make an automotive part using a different process, primarily with concerns about heat and vibration, or make all parts on the automotive process and not do the automotive (PPAP) paperwork on the industrial parts. A lot of new parts are designed to use the automotive process even if the parts never make it into a vehicle. As long as commercial-grade (consumer electronics) parts are not being used, the parts are the same.

That being said, this is about the worst time to need to buy a new vehicle because demand is high, component prices are increasing, and vehicle supply is constrained. If you can wait, it will save you money. Our plan right now is not to buy until 2023.

[Lester Polfus]

I really dislike buying something based on the less than 10% usage case. In other words, I do not add cost for an issue that I may see only once or twice a year, especially if the issue is not that severe. With modern traction control systems, I fail to see the advantage of AWD for "occasional ice/snow". If the weather is bad enough that a FWD vehicle has issues, AWD is not the answer.

Yes. When have a handful of snow events a year, which usually drops several inches, to occasional a foot or two. Because there are only a few houses on our road, it often is the very last to get plowed.

When it was time to replace my wife's 2008 Ford Escape, which had AWD, we specifically didn't replace it with an AWD vehicle. I've driven both FWD and AWD vehicles on a couple inches of snow, and didn't see a huge performance difference. I'd chalk differences up to the tires more than the drive systems. We bought at FWD Ford Edge and saved the weight, expense and maintenance cost of the AWD system.

Over a a couple inches of snow, then that is why we own a full size, 4WD truck, with M+S tires.

[camel]

Fwd vehicles with the weight over the drive wheels and appropriate tires will see most people through most stuff. One of the reasons I see the transmission problems in Subaru and other AWD vehicles with a cvt, is people think they can go any where. They high mount it and dig themselves out by the throttle. Knowing how to drive and when you should and should not drive will make more the difference.

Awd systems are a crutch that has been sold to people.

Longevity and proper maintenance and all that jazz of electronic motors on wheels is what worries me as well. That’s a dam expensive fix

[BN]

I've been a Toyota fan since my first new 1977 Corolla. I've had several since. In 2014 I bought a new AWD Sienna van and drove it up until a few months ago when I passed it on to my grand daughter and I got a 2019 Subaru Outback. The Sienna didn't have near enough ground clearance for my purposes. The Outback did much better on our icy driveway this winter. When my wife's 2002 Toyota Highlander had over 250k miles, she traded for a 2016 Subaru Legacy. She passed the Legacy to another grand daughter and got a 2019 Highlander.

We always get our service done at the respective dealer. All the vehicles have given us good service. I like all the vehicles, but because of size, etc. they all have different purposes.

I haven't been any help at all.

[JAD]

I have a 2017 v6 ob (hey @luckyman), 56k miles, no issues. I’d buy another. I grew up driving rwd cars in Iowa, and have often driven fwd cars. I am kind of indifferent to awd generally but have been really impressed with the OB. My wife wants a sienna. I think you’d get more capability out of any minivan versus an SUV, and the sienna’s hybrid will get you an easy 50% bump in mpg. Reviews on the sienna are not awesome tho — underpowered, weird brakes, and lots of cabin noise. I have the feeling the odyssey is a better choice.

[Lester Polfus]

Fwd vehicles with the weight over the drive wheels and appropriate tires will see most people through most stuff. One of the reasons I see the transmission problems in Subaru and other AWD vehicles with a cvt, is people think they can go any where. They high mount it and dig themselves out by the throttle. Knowing how to drive and when you should and should not drive will make more the difference.

Awd systems are a crutch that has been sold to people.

Longevity and proper maintenance and all that jazz of electronic motors on wheels is what worries me as well. That’s a dam expensive fix

We live near a road up to Silver Star Mountain. We go up there once or twice a year, and I'm cautious with my full-size truck because it's horrible. It is the quintessential spot for Subaru drivers from Portland to get in way over their heads. I am not exaggerating in the least little bit when I say every time I go we see new pieces of plastic trim that have been broken off.

I've seen several people get their Subaru stuck. Some of them were well and truly stuck, and needed help or extrication equipment to get out. They of course do not carry extrication equipment. Many of them just don't have a clue how the systems work on your car, leading to this:

"Can I see your owner's manual? I need to look up how to to turn off your traction control system."

"Why do we want to turn off my traction control? I'M STUCK!"

"Look can you just humor me? The worst that's going to happen is you're still going to be stuck and have to call a tow truck."

"Can't you pull me out?"

"No. I'm concerned that I will break your front fascia and possibly wreck your steering. Let's try pressing some buttons first."

I have learned to get out of the way, because sometimes a "stuck" Subaru will take off like a rocket once you turn of the TCS.

[TGS]

@psalms144.1

Never any of the spectacular CVT problems with my example over 100k or my wife's 2019 which is admittedly still pretty new.

The wheel bearings will get crazy loud, and you'll probably start replacing them around 80k-100k miles.

The cars have an extremely capable AWD system that is more complex than a Haldex found on most "AWD" cars, which is basically fake AWD. As such, there is more to go wrong, and it's a machine...so stuff will eventually break. You don't need it to drive on snowy but mostly plowed roads. It's definitely useful in places like NH, Vermont, Maine, etc. Not necessary for average use unless she purposely wants to tool around in unplowed snow with it, which doesn't seem to be the case for most people and their jobs.

The CVT is the best CVT on the market. People hate CVTs for the same reason people hate anything new, and mechanics hate it because they can't easily work on it. In the unlikely circumstance the CVT goes, she'll get a new one under warranty while she drives around a loaner in the meantime.......unless you're keeping the car well beyond warranty, which IMO is a failing proposition for most cars these days, CVT or not. Cars aren't the simplistic machines they used to be, I personally don't expect them to behave as such anymore.

AWD Toyotas these days have cheat-code level excellence in their AWD systems for anything you could realistically get into.

Is this because of the controller or "brain" that is present in some of the newer Haldex systems? Audi claims their newest generation Haldex system that is replacing the traditional Quattro can send more than 50% power to the rear, which I don't know how that's physically possible with Haldex....oh, and also that it can do so preemptively based on driving conditions, rather than relying on mechanical "lock" (probably incorrect term) from the front wheels physically spinning to engage the rear. I'm not sure how either of those points are true without a center diff which is not present on Haldex AWD systems, but I'm not skilled in the ways of black magic. I assume that system is becoming present in other Haldex equipped brands as the new model redesigns flush out the older models, but it's relatively new and I haven't heard much about how good it actually is.

Yes. When have a handful of snow events a year, which usually drops several inches, to occasional a foot or two. Because there are only a few houses on our road, it often is the very last to get plowed.

When it was time to replace my wife's 2008 Ford Escape, which had AWD, we specifically didn't replace it with an AWD vehicle. I've driven both FWD and AWD vehicles on a couple inches of snow, and didn't see a huge performance difference. I'd chalk differences up to the tires more than the drive systems. We bought at FWD Ford Edge and saved the weight, expense and maintenance cost of the AWD system.

Over a a couple inches of snow, then that is why we own a full size, 4WD truck, with M+S tires.

Unsurprising. Not all AWDs are the same, regardless of the AWD badge on the back. The vehicle you were driving was, in fact, FWD with extremely limited AWD capability that would only engage once the car was already stuck.

Subaru, Porsche, traditional Audi Quattro and a few select others are the only "real" AWD systems and perform totally different than what you were driving. They can send as much power as needed to any wheel, and would send power to all wheels all the time, which reduces the chance of the vehicle from getting stuck to begin with. The vehicle you were driving is physically impossible of doing this with the AWD system it had.

I personally find it very grating when people say, "well I drove a Shitbox XYZ and its AWD didn't do anything" when the conversation isn't about shitboxes. Would you go into a thread about quality duty AR15s and say, "Well I had a Double Star AR15 and it was shit, so..." when the conversation is about Colts and BCMs?