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Thread: "Drawing on the drop"

  1. #21
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    No personal criticism meant. It's all open for discussion bro.

    My point was a very general one. That scene from Miami Vice (of which I'm a fan) has been broken down and analyzed here and elsewhere ad nauseum, almost more than videos of actual shootings. Of course, no one in those vids were wearing cool aviator shades and rocking to Jan Hammer.
    Thanks and my apologies for my irritability. I'm wearing aviator shades right now, which makes the apology even cooler.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  2. #22
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    You might also check on Force Science.

    You might also google 'creating lag time'
    Will do. Thanks!
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  3. #23
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    If you do find it, please share it.
    I will. Didn't find anything in a quick search yesterday. I'm now wondering if I'm thinking of Correia's class on Lessons Learned. I did it online last spring so I should still have access to it. I'll have to buzz through it and see. Thanks again for the pointer.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  4. #24

  5. #25
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    If the issue is whether you can shoot when someone has a gun pointed at you, that's an old one.

    The key is the attentional allocation of the gun 'pointer'. You have a limited capacity of attention to detect stimuli and react. Diverting from the opponent leads to you being behind the curve. Attentional problems, called perceptual narrowing, selective attention, the popular in the gun world - tunnel vision - all well know in the literature. The old OODA loop disruption.

    Anecdotally as that is alway more interesting that science:

    At an Insights (Greg Hamilton and John Holschen's outfit) class at KRtraining, we discussed the issue. It was claimed by someone that if had the gun on you, you could not shoot him before you shot him. Greg said you could if you disrupted the pointer. One way to do this was if the pointer was blabbing. The verbalization diverted attentional and motor resources. Thus, Greg had the claimant 'hold up' Greg and babble about giving him the money, blah, blah. Greg had a revolver with Code Eagle in his belt, IIRC (might have been holstered but I don't think so). In mid-babble, Greg drew and 'shot' him. So not a head turn but diversion of attention.

    We also did one where you stood face to face with an opponent. The opponent was to draw from the belt and shoot you. The idea was that you could not respond quick enough given the RT processing. Mostly you couldn't. I did beat that an stop the draw by: 1. Focusing and mentally rehearsing my move. That was a straight hand move to the gun. 2. Just looking at the gun carrier's gun hand (Karl). When it twitched, I moved - in a sense the motion was cocked. So I played the attentional focus game and ignored everything but that hand.

    Now science (we don't need no stinking science).

    I refer our membership to a general book:

    a.
    The Psychology of Police Deadly Force Encounters by Laurence Miller - a general resource on the issues of DFEs with a focus on OIS. Good solid review of reaction issues. Good review of other deadly force issues with very competent psychological and neuroscience. Well referenced, so not just street wisdom. Lots of useful overlap to the civilian.

    b. Miller mentions:

    Reasonableness and Reaction Time J. Pete Blair et al.

    Police Quarterly, 2011, 14 324-343.
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ction-Time.pdf

    Abstract:

    When the police use deadly force, their actions are judged by the reasonableness standard. This article seeks to inform the reasonableness standard by examining the ability of police officers to respond to armed suspects. The results of a reaction time experiment are presented. In this experiment, police officers encountered a suspect armed with a gun, pointing down and not at the police officer. The police officer had his gun aimed at the suspect and ordered the suspect to drop the gun. The suspect then either surrendered or attempted to shoot the officer. The speed with which the officer fired if the suspect chose to shoot was assessed. Results suggest that the officers were generally not able to fire before the suspect. Implications for the reasonableness standard and policy are discussed.


    Read the article for details. Here's some:

    The basic design of the study was that officers were responding to a generic “person with a gun” call. The suspect and officer started in the same room at a distance of 10 feet and were required to stay in boxes that were taped on the floor. The officer began each exchange facing away from the participant. The officer then turned, with his gun out and pointed at the suspect, and gave the suspect commands to put the gun down. Suspects in the surrender conditions were told to follow the officer’s orders. Suspects in the shooting conditions were told to attempt to shoot the officer anytime after the initial command to put down the gun was given.
    Glock 17 Sims guns were used.

    When the average reaction times of the police officers and suspects in our study were compared, they showed that police officers and suspects were taking about the same amount of time to fire. When the individual exchanges were examined, police officers fired at the same time or later than the suspect 61% of the time. Additionally, even in the situations where the officer was faster, there was less than a .2 s difference, suggesting that the suspect would still get a shot off in most of these encounters. The process of perceiving the suspect’s movement, interpreting the action, deciding on a response, and executing the response for the officer generally took longer than it took the sus-pect to execute the action of shooting, even though the officer already had his gun aimed at the suspect. Although our sample size is not large, our results are consistent with previous research and our general understanding of the reaction process (Brebner & Welford, 1980; Grossman & Christensen, 2004; Honig & Lewinski, 2008; Luce; 1986; Welchman et al., 2010). Completing all of the steps necessary to interpret a situation, select, and then execute a response simply tends to take longer than it takes to execute an already decided-upon action.We did not find a significant difference in firing times or reaction times by gun position.
    ---------

    There is much more detail in the article.

    So much for science - back to anecdotes. So I'm a terrorist in a school shooting exercise. I'm in an office with a long arm (paint ball in those days). Airsoft handgun in the small of my back. The team enters - I surrender. I am at gun point. Hands up. I'm sorry, I sez. I draw the airsoft and shoot an officer in the head at about 10 feet. Pellet bounces off the center his full face mask. I then 'die' in the proverbial hail of paint.

    At KRtraining. We are in line at a stop and rob. I am in back of customer (Karl) at the register. Karl is a crook. Karl shoots the clerk. Oh, dear - I take Karl down to ground (oops). Tell him not to move as I have drawn. His hidden backup (surprise) yells at me to get off him. I turn and shoot him (in the shoulder, we later determine). General shoot out starts with other armed patrons.

    Summary - attention and focus, allocation of processing - all affects what you see, your action decision and your motor skills. What else is new. Can you beat the the drawn gun? Look at the bolded part of my quotes from Blair, et al.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Yes, I was there and I suspect we all weren't nearly as cool as we thought.

    I loved the Chris Rock video and Buck Savage was the best thing to happen to police training.
    Yep, you give me a tenth generation video copy of Buck Savage OR the Mogie (sp?) tape and I could teach college.

  7. #27
    Deleted duplicate

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Yep, you give me a tenth generation video copy of Buck Savage OR the Mogie (sp?) tape and I could teach college.
    No need for a video copy, Buck is on YouTube

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    If the issue is whether you can shoot when someone has a gun pointed at you, that's an old one.

    The key is the attentional allocation of the gun 'pointer'. You have a limited capacity of attention to detect stimuli and react. Diverting from the opponent leads to you being behind the curve. Attentional problems, called perceptual narrowing, selective attention, the popular in the gun world - tunnel vision - all well know in the literature. The old OODA loop disruption.

    Anecdotally as that is alway more interesting that science:

    At an Insights (Greg Hamilton and John Holschen's outfit) class at KRtraining, we discussed the issue. It was claimed by someone that if had the gun on you, you could not shoot him before you shot him. Greg said you could if you disrupted the pointer. One way to do this was if the pointer was blabbing. The verbalization diverted attentional and motor resources. Thus, Greg had the claimant 'hold up' Greg and babble about giving him the money, blah, blah. Greg had a revolver with Code Eagle in his belt, IIRC (might have been holstered but I don't think so). In mid-babble, Greg drew and 'shot' him. So not a head turn but diversion of attention.

    We also did one where you stood face to face with an opponent. The opponent was to draw from the belt and shoot you. The idea was that you could not respond quick enough given the RT processing. Mostly you couldn't. I did beat that an stop the draw by: 1. Focusing and mentally rehearsing my move. That was a straight hand move to the gun. 2. Just looking at the gun carrier's gun hand (Karl). When it twitched, I moved - in a sense the motion was cocked. So I played the attentional focus game and ignored everything but that hand.

    Now science (we don't need no stinking science).

    I refer our membership to a general book:

    a.
    The Psychology of Police Deadly Force Encounters by Laurence Miller - a general resource on the issues of DFEs with a focus on OIS. Good solid review of reaction issues. Good review of other deadly force issues with very competent psychological and neuroscience. Well referenced, so not just street wisdom. Lots of useful overlap to the civilian.

    b. Miller mentions:

    Reasonableness and Reaction Time J. Pete Blair et al.

    Police Quarterly, 2011, 14 324-343.
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ction-Time.pdf

    Abstract:

    When the police use deadly force, their actions are judged by the reasonableness standard. This article seeks to inform the reasonableness standard by examining the ability of police officers to respond to armed suspects. The results of a reaction time experiment are presented. In this experiment, police officers encountered a suspect armed with a gun, pointing down and not at the police officer. The police officer had his gun aimed at the suspect and ordered the suspect to drop the gun. The suspect then either surrendered or attempted to shoot the officer. The speed with which the officer fired if the suspect chose to shoot was assessed. Results suggest that the officers were generally not able to fire before the suspect. Implications for the reasonableness standard and policy are discussed.


    Read the article for details. Here's some:



    Glock 17 Sims guns were used.



    ---------

    There is much more detail in the article.

    So much for science - back to anecdotes. So I'm a terrorist in a school shooting exercise. I'm in an office with a long arm (paint ball in those days). Airsoft handgun in the small of my back. The team enters - I surrender. I am at gun point. Hands up. I'm sorry, I sez. I draw the airsoft and shoot an officer in the head at about 10 feet. Pellet bounces off the center his full face mask. I then 'die' in the proverbial hail of paint.

    At KRtraining. We are in line at a stop and rob. I am in back of customer (Karl) at the register. Karl is a crook. Karl shoots the clerk. Oh, dear - I take Karl down to ground (oops). Tell him not to move as I have drawn. His hidden backup (surprise) yells at me to get off him. I turn and shoot him (in the shoulder, we later determine). General shoot out starts with other armed patrons.

    Summary - attention and focus, allocation of processing - all affects what you see, your action decision and your motor skills. What else is new. Can you beat the the drawn gun? Look at the bolded part of my quotes from Blair, et al.
    I would love to test a scenario with LEO at training where I’m a “bad guy” with a knife (but also a concealed gun AIWB that they do NOT know about). They demand I put the knife down and I do... but I also choose to draw and fire when I think their OODA loop is disrupted. I wonder if with my hand speed I could draw on a drawn gun with success.
    Pointing at cardboard things....

  10. #30
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Bloomington, IN
    At a rifle course I taught last week, co-instructors demonstrated the "Action/Reaction" drill they're using in our tactical team. The instructor starts with a gun in his hand, pointed at the ground. The trainee starts in a variety of positions, holstered, low ready, high ready, and aimed in/trigger on finger. The instructor initiates the action, and first shooter to get a shot off "wins." Not surprisingly, holstered and hands off gun ALWAYS loses. What surprised a lot of the students was that some of them couldn't press off a shot from aimed in, finger on trigger, and beat our guy with his gun pointed at the ground.

    Now, the instructor in question is FAST, and he's not doing a full presentation or draw of the gun. But, still eye opening how much Action beats Reaction. Of six shooters, only two "beat" the instructor even from aimed in...

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