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Thread: "Drawing on the drop"

  1. #1
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    "Drawing on the drop"

    This question is prompted by my having just looked at the Mozambique thread. When the assassin shoots the cop from a surrender position, he waits until the cop slightly turns his head and looks away. Because of that opportunity--well, because of that, and because he's kind of quick--he's able to shoot even though the cop has his gun on him already.

    So here's my question. At some point, I don't remember where or when, I read an article or watched a video or something that went into some explanations about how much the guy with the drop needs to turn his head away before a similarly quick person could theoretically get his gun into play. Does that question make sense?

    Searches here and on bing have been thoroughly unproductive.

    Does that ring any bells for anyone? And if so, could you remind me of what it was? And, if you have positive or negative thoughts about it, please feel free to include them!
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  2. #2
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    John at Active Self Protection references this topic sometimes. He discusses it here, starting at the 2:40 mark


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    Physical speed and weapons-handling skill are clearly factors, but thinking is what slows people down. You can't tell what distracts an opponent or how long he or she is going to be distracted. You can simply use indicators that you see throughout life (expression, looking away, and so forth).

    Preparation also enters into this. Returning to the "Miami Vice" clip, the assassin has no compunction against using deadly force. He is obviously skilled at presenting from concealment and engaging. If he wasn't as confident in his skills, presentation and engagement would likely have taken longer. (When we consider that the bad guy is really a world-class shooter acting in a television show, he also knows that if he bobbles the draw, there is always take 2. Thus, there isn't the stress of possibly getting shot.)

    The bodyguard, on the other hand, is thinking about a lot. While he could have engaged the shooter immediately, he opted for a challenge. He's thinking about what he should do, issuing multiple verbal commands. He is likely considering the legal implications of shooting this guy and also trying to decide what to do with the cobra he has somehow caught and is now trying to put back in the basket.

    While we LEO's are far from perfect, we likely would have a default setting to deal with this situation if we didn't shoot. Ordering the suspect to face away (or, better yet, approaching from his rear) would have helped even things up (as well as moving if he complies with the verbal command). We've likely thought through what we'd do next (go to one handed stance, hold credentials over head, prepare for verbal commands from arriving uniforms). While an armed or unarmed citizen might do something differently, thinking these scenarios through will likely reduce lag time.

    Who would have envisioned that this 1984 clip from "Miami Vice" would be used to review tactics nearly four decades later?

  4. #4
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    Physical speed and weapons-handling skill are clearly factors, but thinking is what slows people down. You can't tell what distracts an opponent or how long he or she is going to be distracted. You can simply use indicators that you see throughout life (expression, looking away, and so forth).

    Preparation also enters into this. Returning to the "Miami Vice" clip, the assassin has no compunction against using deadly force. He is obviously skilled at presenting from concealment and engaging. If he wasn't as confident in his skills, presentation and engagement would likely have taken longer. (When we consider that the bad guy is really a world-class shooter acting in a television show, he also knows that if he bobbles the draw, there is always take 2. Thus, there isn't the stress of possibly getting shot.)

    The bodyguard, on the other hand, is thinking about a lot. While he could have engaged the shooter immediately, he opted for a challenge. He's thinking about what he should do, issuing multiple verbal commands. He is likely considering the legal implications of shooting this guy and also trying to decide what to do with the cobra he has somehow caught and is now trying to put back in the basket.

    While we LEO's are far from perfect, we likely would have a default setting to deal with this situation if we didn't shoot. Ordering the suspect to face away (or, better yet, approaching from his rear) would have helped even things up (as well as moving if he complies with the verbal command). We've likely thought through what we'd do next (go to one handed stance, hold credentials over head, prepare for verbal commands from arriving uniforms). While an armed or unarmed citizen might do something differently, thinking these scenarios through will likely reduce lag time.

    Who would have envisioned that this 1984 clip from "Miami Vice" would be used to review tactics nearly four decades later?
    Far too much had been made of an action sequence from an old television show, that was portraying a fictional situation created in a false environment. But, dude's gotta dude.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  5. #5
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    I appreciate the replies to this thread, mostly, but I think my actual question is getting lost. I'm not asking about drawing on the drop in general or even about tactics in general. I'm asking if anyone can call to mind the article or video I'm ineffectually trying to find. I described it roughly in the OP.

    To repeat. There was some sort of study produced by someone somewhere in some format. Specific enough yet? The basic idea was as follows. In a situation where A is held at gunpoint by B, we all know that A cannot draw his gun and fire at B before B fires at A. But if B's attention is drawn away from A for a certain portion of time, this might allow A to draw and fire successfully. This article/video/whatever I am thinking of did some timer tests or whatever on what percentage B's face would have to be directed away from A before A could successfully engage. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

    That's the question I'm asking.

    Trooper, if it helps you find peace with all this silly duding, I really do assure you it's not a tactical question, despite the forum--picked because it seemed perhaps one of the least inappropriate fora for the issue, rather than because I'm wargaming the topic for reals--and I'm just curious, in a dudely sort of way. I do appreciate the reminder, however, that Miami Vice was fiction. I do forget sometimes.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

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    critical race weary blues's Avatar
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    Now I remember why I stopped reading a lot of these threads.
    ...and just like that, I woke up one morning and the America I knew and loved was gone.

  7. #7
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Now I remember why I stopped reading a lot of these threads.
    This thread is totally important. Change my mind.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  8. #8
    critical race weary blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    This thread is totally important. Change my mind.
    Nope. You're way too erudite for me to take on.
    ...and just like that, I woke up one morning and the America I knew and loved was gone.

  9. #9
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Nope. You're way too erudite for me to take on.
    There's certainly evidence here that I read Southnarc's post of this morning, and a post about the Mozambique drill, and also that at some point in the past I read or saw something about shooting people but can't remember it. So, yeah, erudite.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    There's certainly evidence here that I read Southnarc's post of this morning, and a post about the Mozambique drill, and also that at some point in the past I read or saw something about shooting people but can't remember it. So, yeah, erudite.
    Don't know about a formal study but the Active Self Protection channel linked in post 2 has done some analysis of shooting videos in the manner you describe in other videos.

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