Wound Trauma Incapacitation With 12 Gauge Buckshot

[Choc]

Greetings.

In this document, Dr Gary Roberts States

“Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon.” - Page 14

https://nebula.wsimg.com/fb54bbe7bcd...&alloworigin=1

This got me wondering: How much damage does a single shot of #1 or 00 buck do at Close range vs for example a Heavy 70 grain-ish Fragmenting bullet in 5.56x45mm? 2x as much? 3x? 4x? Assume it’s in the first 12 inches of gelatin.

It’s apart of a broader pondering for long arm cartridges. We can measure the surface area of expanded handgun projectiles and compare them, but it doesn’t seem as simple for longuns.

[TCinVA]

It is more difficult to measure because high speed projectiles stretch tissue beyond the tissue's ability to cope, and that produces more tearing and destruction of vital structures. Ultimately this produces more rapid blood loss. Ultimately what forces a human being to stop carrying out violent action is dropping blood pressure below the threshold necessary to maintain consciousness. Since it takes about 1/3 the blood pressure to power consciousness when laying down as it does when standing, someone going unconscious while standing and regaining consciousness on the ground is often seen, especially with pistols.

The exact amount of damage is difficult to quantify exactly due to how much variance there is in the human body. Pistols are pretty easy because the only damage they really do is the permanent crush cavity they create when passing through tissue. We can see the PCC in gel pretty easily and can make a calculation.

In gel you can look at what a rifle's TSC is and theorize that if you see a significantly larger TSC that it will correspond to a "larger amount" of tearing and destruction of vital structures, but it can't be neatly calculated the same way you can calculate the difference in PCC with pistol bullets. Exactly how much is difficult to quantify because different tissue stretches to different levels. Your skin is very, very elastic. Your liver is incredibly inelastic.

Buckshot is different, too. The near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles reduces the capacity of tissue to stretch exponentially. If a piece of tissue has let's say 100 points of stretching capability and you impact it with 10 projectiles at the same time, the stretch capacity is now divided among each impact area which means they all tear much more readily. This leads to more destruction of tissue and vital structures, which produces more rapid blood loss. But, again, this is difficult to calculate with any precision like the PCC of pistol rounds.

Then beyond that simultaneous impact phenomenon, buckshot also creates multiple wound tracks as the shot starts to spread out inside the target cutting individual PCC's for each projectile that is (in the case of 00) pretty close to the PCC created by 9mm/.38 pistol projectiles. This on top of the TSC created by the impact of multiple projectiles at about the same place at about the same place is why buckshot is the most destructive thing we can lay on another human being short of ordnance.

[cosermann]

You could think about it this way. . .

Each pellet of 00 Buck is .33 caliber and weighs 53.8 gr (lead). There are 9 of these pellets in a typical 2.75” shell.

A round of 70 gr. 5.56mm, weighs . . . wait for it. . . 70 grains. Let’s say it breaks into 2 even pieces (just for the sake of argument). That gives you TWO 35 gr .22 cal projectiles.

Compared to NINE heavier (53.8 gr) .33 cal projectiles.

"Hydrostatic shock" aside (for simplicity, and often not relevant with elastic tissue), the 12 ga will deliver a lot more wound volume, no?

I know this is over-simplified, but it gives an idea.

When Doc says the 12 ga offers, "greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon," he knows what he's talking about.

[JCN]

You could think about it this way. . .

Each pellet of 00 Buck is .33 caliber and weighs 53.8 gr (lead). There are 9 of these pellets in a typical 2.75” shell.

A round of 70 gr. 5.56mm, weighs . . . wait for it. . . 70 grains. Let’s say it breaks into 2 even pieces (just for the sake of argument). That gives you TWO 35 gr .22 cal projectiles.

Compared to NINE heavier (53.8 gr) .33 cal projectiles.

"Hydrostatic shock" aside (for simplicity, and often not relevant with elastic tissue), the 12 ga will deliver a lot more wound volume, no?

I know this is over-simplified, but it gives an idea.

When Doc says the 12 ga offers, "greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon," he knows what he's talking about.

I think the 5.56 going 3x the speed and 9x the energy bears at least mentioning though.

Because projectiles over 2500 fps do different things than those at 1000 fps.

Not disagreeing with the effectiveness of buck.

It’s like insta-Bill drill kind of wounding.

[LHS]

Dr. Roberts pinned several terminal ballistics posts over in the ammo subforum with graphics that should help out with this.

Greetings.

In this document, Dr Gary Roberts States

“Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon.” - Page 14

https://nebula.wsimg.com/fb54bbe7bcd...&alloworigin=1

This got me wondering: How much damage does a single shot of #1 or 00 buck do at Close range vs for example a Heavy 70 grain-ish Fragmenting bullet in 5.56x45mm? 2x as much? 3x? 4x? Assume it’s in the first 12 inches of gelatin.

It’s apart of a broader pondering for long arm cartridges. We can measure the surface area of expanded handgun projectiles and compare them, but it doesn’t seem as simple for longuns.

[Navin Johnson]

The “stickies” in the ammo section is a great place to start with your inquiry

Probably read them all, so one can ask an informed question

Otherwise, this will be a 23 page thread on nonsense

[Choc]

Dr. Roberts pinned several terminal ballistics posts over in the ammo subforum with graphics that should help out with this.

Closest thing I could find to an answer was the “Home Defense Longuns.” In which Dr. Roberts reiterates a full load of 12 Gauge Buckshot does more close-range damage than any loading in 5.56x45mm.

The question still remains, by how much? Assuming Close Range, If you shot 2 rounds of something like 77 grain TMK, would the full load of 12 gauge 00/#1 still produce more damage in 1?

[JCN]

The question still remains, by how much? Assuming Close Range, If you shot 2 rounds of something like 77 grain TMK, would the full load of 12 gauge 00/#1 still produce more damage in 1?

Either will stop an attacker assuming good hits.

But shotgun may give better chance of good hits.

But shotgun will be stopped by handgun rated soft armor.

Rifle will not.

Will a knife or a cleaver cause more damage?

Well, it depends. That’s kind of similar to what you’re asking.

[Hambo]

But shotgun will be stopped by handgun rated soft armor.

While your BG is dealing with that fastball to the sternum, aim higher and execute a failure drill. These discussions always seem as though people think one round has to, or will do, the job every single time. Regardless of caliber, if you're not happy with the result, shot the BG again.

[RevolverRob]

I got stopped yesterday while I was writing a response to this:

1) There is no repeatable scientific measure for "damage" in the sense, I think, you're asking for. We have multiple measures, but they are contextually dependent. The long and short "damage" means multiple things and there isn't a clear way to answer your question.

2) Fragmenting 5.56 is not meant to fragment inside soft tissue. So a 70-grain bullet will remain a 70-grain bullet.

3) The mode of efficacy of buckshot or slugs is not velocity, expansion, or yaw like it is with something like a 5.56 or even JHP. The mode of efficacy of 12/20-gauge shot and slug is WEIGHT. The instantaneous delivery of 7/8-1 1/8 OUNCES of lead. 1-ounce of lead is 437.5 grains, 6.5x the weight of a 70-grain bullet.

4) The selection of #1 or larger buck is driven by the fact that penetration matters. At typical low-recoil velocities, larger buck still penetrates 12-15" of ordnance gel.

5) In the end the "damage" capability of buckshot and slugs is the simultaneous delivery or a large amount of penetrating lead in a concentrated area, that can hit vital regions. A well place 5.56 or plain old 9mm can do the same work. Buckshot might give you a very marginal window increase for accuracy. But not so much it practically matters.