I guess I made a couple USPSA guys mad

[beltjones]

Considering the FAST is shot from full concealment, there is more to it than just pure shooting skill.
There are a lot of high level shooters who never draw from concealment.
Heck I know a lot of high level shooters who don't even own a gun that they could conceal, much less a holster and are well practiced in clearing cover.
Another thing I've noticed is many of the top shooters aren't any faster or more accurate on the trigger than a good B shooter. Shaving .05 off of your splits and .15 off your draw doesn't add up to enough time over a stage to separate a B from a GM. Where the A's and GM's are smokin fast is how they move through a stage and engage targets.
The FAST is a stand and deliver test from concealment and I can totally see how someone who primarily shoots IPSC competition could flub it.

Except that the classifier stages that bump those B shooters eventually to GM are by and large "stand and deliver" tests.

I totally agree on the added complexity of drawing from concealment, especially if we're talking about something other than the "shoot me first" IDPA vest. And if you take away an Limited M's 2011 and hand him a G19 he's going to suck for at least a few minutes. We can all agree with that.

However, considering that the OP first said it was a few GM's who couldn't complete a FAST drill in under 9 seconds, then said it was a D, a C, and an M, and so on, I'm not going to be too surprised if next he says it was really 6 seconds - and the M was drawing from an ankle holster.

[SecondsCount]

....

However, considering that the OP first said it was a few GM's who couldn't complete a FAST drill in under 9 seconds, then said it was a D, a C, and an M, and so on, I'm not going to be too surprised if next he says it was really 6 seconds - and the M was drawing from an ankle holster.

I said what was told to me by one individual and only changed my post after speaking to another individual who is much closer to the sport here. You seem to think that I am here to make fun of USPSA shooters, which I am not. There are many good USPSA shooters that could do well on the FAST drill but I found it interesting that this group struggled with it.

[cdunn]

I am still at a loss to get an IDPA match going in NoVA. USPSA would be even better.

I waiting to see if Todd is going to get matches going.

[jthhapkido]

There are many good USPSA shooters that could do well on the FAST drill but I found it interesting that this group struggled with it.

Why?

If they were GMs, that would indeed be interesting. (Quite frankly, I actually thought what you originally said was either a plain lie, or you were informed wrong.)

But later you said an M, and some Cs and Ds. Did they _all_ have trouble getting it below nine seconds? Or just the Cs and Ds? What times did the M actually get?

Your initial phrasing implied something fairly significant about USPSA competitors as a group. Then, after you changed what you said, it still says something interesting if a M-class shooter couldn't get less than 9 seconds. Did that actually happen? Or did just _some_ of the USPSA shooters have trouble?

Did they have trouble the whole time? Were they trying to improve? Did their times get better? Did they only try it once or twice, and then stop?

Your phrasing choice was interesting. As such, people found your later change of story interesting also.

Any other details you are able to add to make things more clear about what happened?

[beltjones]

The whole thing smacks of an "us vs. them" attitude, which is a real shame.

It's all part of this "my karate is better than your karate" nonsense that, if you actually care about getting better at shooting, you will drop.

It's just like back in the old TMA days, when guys at the dojo would regale each other with stories of the one guy they knew who totally beat up the BJJ black belt. It was always a lie told to preserve the egos of everyone who was too narrowminded to actually go cross train.

I've heard a million times how the USPSA GM's are only good at "gaming," and that their shooting skills are weak compared to _______ (insert the name of the tactical guru du jour). I've also seen a million times the tactical instructors be totally puzzled when they can't shoot as accurately as the upper-level USPSA guys.

It's all nonsense. Leave your ego at the door and go shoot. Shoot USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, take classes from good instructors, push yourself beyond your current limits, dry fire every day, challenge preconceived notions of proper technique, and study the knowledge of everyone - above your level and below. That's the only way to get better at shooting.

Or you can stick with the "us vs. them" stuff and stagnate while those you thought were your buddies (one of "us") one by one become one of them.

[jetfire]

Dude, my sensei can totally kick your sensei's ass.

[jthhapkido]

Dude, my sensei can totally kick your sensei's ass.

That's not true! You don't even practice a Real Martial Art(tm)!

(sigh) Some types of arguments never change, do they?

[00bullitt]

I'll just say this. Obtaining the rank of GM is not just something that gets handed out. In the scheme of things. Out of a membership of 20,000 active members. There are only 425 active GM cards and that is respective to divisions. That means one person can hold more than one card to skew that number. I hold two. One in Production and one in Limited. I consider myself a good shooter. Dave Sevigny and Rob Leatham are great shooters as Phil Strader and Mike Seeklander and a host of others. when I shoot against Dave in a match. I do good to get 85% of the available points. I can shoot against a host of others and maintain 90% or better of the available points.

I'll also say that just because you are not a USPSA shooter and you don't hold a GM card does not mean you can not shoot the quality of those guys or vice versa. Todd Green does not have his GM card but he is every bit the shooter as one in my book. I don't think SLG holds one but I guarantee you he is every bit as good as or better than the majority of GM's out there. Bottom line....a good shooter is a good shooter.

I did not get my coin in the FAST. I can shoot that drill in the low 4's consistently. I just didn't hook up under the stress of the clock on my three runs. Some days your the chicken and some days your the feathers. do I ever think I can best Dave. Nope. And I don't try. I can't break below 4 unless I am without concealment. Dave doesn't just break 4....he shatters it. Now if I were to put my money on someone that I think can break Dave's record. I'd put my money on Ben Stoeger. The FAST is just the type of thing he shines at.

This whole rank structure is related to the organization to which the game is played. Is it a valid representation of skill. For the most part it is. A GM knows how to basically operate at high speed accurately. Proper fundamentals are required to accomplish that.

I personally use competition as a tool to improve my skill as a whole with a handgun, rifle or shotgun. Does it work....hell yeah it works. Is it valid in the real world. Some will argue, but I'm of the opinion that hell yeah it does.
Its an enjoyable way to improve your skill while comaradarizing with friends and some like minded individuals.

I just felt like chiming in because it does routinely feel like an us versus them. Well...I'm us that plays with them on a regular basis.

Anyway, just my .02

[DonovanM]

Now if I were to put my money on someone that I think can break Dave's record. I'd put my money on Ben Stoeger. The FAST is just the type of thing he shines at.

If I could put my money on one person being able to beat the record, I would put it on TGO (Rob Leatham). Just because he has bad knees doesn't mean he can't stand and deliver

(Congrats on the GM card, by the way)

[beltjones]

Now this is getting interesting!

Try getting TGO to wear a concealment garment... That's a tall order.

Ben Stoeger is a good candidate to beat Sevigny's record.

But, if I had to pick anyone who I think could do it, I'd put my money on Taran Butler. He shoots IDPA which means he at least owns a fishing vest, and he's a raging speed freak who loves to burn everything down.

Of course, given the way Sevigny is shooting lately if anyone beats the record I think it would take Dave about a week to find time to set up a camcorder and reclaim the title.