Win 70 or R 700 .223 for a beginner “precision” rifle?

[Borderland]

Thanks everyone, I'm soaking up as much as I can right now. With Model 70s and Tikkas going for more than I want to pay right now and after doing some thinking I've expanded my search parameters a bit and narrowed down some features I'd prefer.

I'm sticking to .223 (ideally .223 Wylde) for economy and recoil reasons. If/when I decide to step up in caliber, .243 will probably be my choice because I have a thing for old calibers, I like the quarterbores (plus 7mm) and I'm a contrarian guncrank. This is just for my 100/200 yard bench shooting fun so get off my lawn! But the case for 6 CM is compelling. I almost bit on a RPR in 6 CM with 400 rounds of factory ammo but it was just over what I was willing to spend, I haven't really handled a RPR (although I do have the rimfire version) and it seems like a waste of a good LR cartridge for a 200 yard range. I might have to take another look at the 6 CM.

Turns out I'm not as interested in a chassis rifle as I thought I was. After handling a couple of Savage rifles in factory MDT stocks, I prefer the feel and handling of something like the KRG Bravo, H-S or B&C. My Bravo stocked 10/22 feels much better to me than my RPRR.


I like that. That's a good looking setup that also appears to be pretty solid. I had a 7.62x39 barreled action a few years ago but never could find any stocks I liked that were in my budget and the aftermarket support in general seemed a bit thin. Given my intention to use this rifle for fun and training, I think I'm going to add them to my search list.



It arrived yesterday and I think I'm going to need a separate thread for it. It's the A4 Service Rifle Optic Upper, Post Ban, 1-7. Once I get a fixed stock lower assembled, I need to learn how to shoot it from the bench since I haven't found a way to mount one of my Magpul bipods to the A2 handguard yet. I'll still want a good bolt action because I like variety.

.223 was my choice because brass is cheap, or was. I just sold 2K once fired for 0.05/pc plus shipping. Now that I've shot the cheap bullets for awhile I'm going to buy some match grade. I know that those will tighten my groups up. That was he reason for the build.

6 mm is the sweet spot for 2-300 yd competition. i don't shoot in competition.

[Wise_A]

6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

On the topic of sizing--I full-length size all my brass, either all the way back or just enough to bump the shoulder a couple thou. FL sizing has returned excellent groups. If you want to get more involved, a honed FL die to resize and then a mandrel to expand the neck would be the next step, but that requires you to commit to a single bullet and case.

[cornstalker]

Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.

In regards to twist rates. JBM ballistics has several free ballistics calculators on their site. One of which is a stability calculator that uses the Miller Stability Factor formula. They also have a library of common bullet length measurements. It is a good resource to gather guideline data on what twists are likely to stabilize what bullets at a given velocity.

https://www.jbmballistics.com/ballis...culators.shtml

[awp_101]

On the WOA upper, I wonder if you could swap out the gas block for one with a chunk of Pic on the bottom and just use a Magpul bipod. And maybe receiver height rail on the upper part so you could mount up folding irons just for giggles.

I'd prefer to not swap the gas block unless there's just no other viable option and I can't find a good bench shooting solution either by research or experimentation. It does have a FF tube under the handguard so I might be able to use a front rest and rear bag setup as long as the front rest is behind the gas block without worrying if there's pressure on the barrel, etc. I've given thought to putting a set of DD fixed sights on it just to see what my eyes will let me do.

One thing to consider is that if you're really going to chase accuracy and work up custom loads for the guns, you'll have separate brass fleets for a bolt gun and for the gas gun anyway. You'll use a full-length die for the gas gun to ensure reliable feeding and mostly just neck size for the bolt gun, so even the press setups will be different. So you there's an argument for making it a different cartridge altogether to prevent mixups.

What about doing something in a PPC or TCU? All the economy with brass and powder of a .223, but something different and an ecosystem devoted to competition accuracy?

Fair point regarding mixing brass and I do have an interest in the TCU family due to a perpetual interest in Contenders. I saw a bolt action 7 TCU built on a Savage Axis (IIRC) on either GB or GI a couple of years ago but it sold before I was able to get my research done. A 6x45, 6/6.5/7 TCU wouldn't be off the table when it comes time to build a rifle just the way I want it. Maybe a 6 or 6.5x47 Lapua if I do something with a .308 bolt face.

6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

I'm not down for anything beyond basic necking up or down thanks to time and space considerations and I'd really, really like to keep this first one an off the shelf caliber (such as things are nowadays) for the same reason. AFA barrel life, I struggle to get to the 100/200 yard outdoor range even once a quarter most of the year. Based on a couple of threads on Sniper's Hide, if I figure an average life of 1400 rounds for a 6CM barrel and 100 rounds per range session (almost certainly an overestimation) that's over 3 years of barrel life. Maybe more if I'm not rapid firing long strings. Based on my typical ammo consumption, I'm probably looking at 5-7 years of barrel life which doesn't bother me at all.

[SecondsCount]

6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

On the topic of sizing--I full-length size all my brass, either all the way back or just enough to bump the shoulder a couple thou. FL sizing has returned excellent groups. If you want to get more involved, a honed FL die to resize and then a mandrel to expand the neck would be the next step, but that requires you to commit to a single bullet and case.

6BR is a fantastic caliber, I have one, but nobody makes one in a factory chambering. You can buy loaded ammo but there are several companies that make brass for it, including Norma and Lapua- which is excellent brass for reloading and accuracy. The only reason to "make" brass is if you needed to fireform it for 6BRA, 6BRX, etc.

223 is still a good choice for a factory gun, especially for the average guy like most of us who just like to go bang steel once in a while. Low recoil, long brass and barrel life, tons of options for factory loaded ammo, cheap to reload, and with the right twist you can shoot everything from the little match/varmint bullets all the way up the the higher BC heavies.

For your White Oak upper:

Harris makes a bipod adapter for the A2 handguards

[Wise_A]

I was thinking of 30BR re: pita brass, which I was really interested in for a little while. Savage does offer at least the 12 LRPV and 12 F-Class in 6mm Norma BR (I don't think anyone does Remington?)...but yeah, nobody offers a 6BR that I would recommend anyone to buy over other stuff. Objectively, 223 is a really strong choice, it's just not cool.

[awp_101]

I’ll be honest, Savage appeals to my cheap ass frugal nature and my love of tinkering. Not super cool or sexy but add in a good barrel, stock and single shot follower and I should be good to go. Plus I think the trigger can be upgraded which is something I haven’t seen for the Howas. Resale value isn’t a huge concern because if/when it gets replaced it’ll go to one of the boys or a grandkid.

[OlongJohnson]

I’ll be honest, Savage appeals to my cheap ass frugal nature and my love of tinkering. Not super cool or sexy but add in a good barrel, stock and single shot follower and I should be good to go. Plus I think the trigger can be upgraded which is something I haven’t seen for the Howas. Resale value isn’t a huge concern because if/when it gets replaced it’ll go to one of the boys or a grandkid.

Or you could buy a new Rem700 bolt/receiver with no barrel attached. You can buy them as single-shot only so you get the full stiffness in the receiver.

And Timney makes a trigger for standard-size Howas. Don't know if it works in Minis.

[SecondsCount]

I was thinking of 30BR re: pita brass, which I was really interested in for a little while. Savage does offer at least the 12 LRPV and 12 F-Class in 6mm Norma BR (I don't think anyone does Remington?)...but yeah, nobody offers a 6BR that I would recommend anyone to buy over other stuff. Objectively, 223 is a really strong choice, it's just not cool.

I was under the understanding that Savage had discontinued the 6BR chambering but I see that Buds and Grab a Gun have some in stock for $1440. From what I have read, those are not repeaters so you have to single load each round, typical of benchrest.

There are so many options these days for starting with a receiver and bolting stuff to it. Savage works well but since they have several different versions of their receiver, you have to be careful which one you choose so you can find a stock that fits it.

Remington 700 pattern receivers are very popular with the PRS crowd. There are many options from Defiance, Origin, Impact, etc that give you a ready to go receiver that you can get prefit barrels or do a Remage style nut. Tons of stock and trigger options out there.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

AWP-101

While you mention the M70 as out of your price range, that era USRA/Win M70's had Wilson barrels and were very accurate with appropriate weight bullets. Most do not need a lot in the way of blueprinting if you go down the custom build rabbit hole although M70 DBM choices are much fewer if you do and you need want dbm.

In regards to 6mm br, they are hard to beat and the factory ammo is world class. I remember talking with the AMTU 300 M shooters at a a clinic they were hosting and they were using factory ammo. They didn't reload because the factory was an honest 1/3 MOA, 10 shot group ammo. They have the resources and the desire to have the best in the world but choose not to reload that caliber....

If you go with a .223 boltface precision rifle, go a minimum of 8 twist and 6.5 - 7 twist is preferable and strongly consider making the chamber look like a Ackley Improved instead of a Wylde. AR's are limited to 55 kPSI, bolt guns are not. Many load heavy 80-95 gr. 223's at high performance levels. If you form your brass into 223 AI you can get the performance gain of the extra capacity AND ensure that you wont inadvertently have a high pressure round migrate into a AR.....