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Thread: Win 70 or R 700 .223 for a beginner “precision” rifle?

  1. #21
    Old man yelling at cloud OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awp_101 View Post
    I’ve actually got a White Oak Armament competition upper on the way. It was a good deal so it should be here next week.
    Honestly, I'd just spend some time with that upper. Assuming it's not the built-in carry handle irons version, spend the bolt gun money on some really nice glass. My 20-in. upper was a big factor in viewing my .223 bolt gun as surplus and putting it on consignment.
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  2. #22
    Brass Rat Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Nice - is that a 20" barrel?
    Yep, and they weren't kidding when they said it was a heavy barrel. I can only shoot it about 1 MOA. Others can do better with it.
    Last edited by Borderland; 03-16-2021 at 08:03 PM.
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  3. #23
    Brass Rat Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Strange, until the advent of the 6mm PPC, the .222 with 52-53 gr bullets in 14 twist was a leader in benchrest.

    My 14 twist .22-250 is accurate with up to the 60 gr Hornady SP but wild with the longer 60 gr HP.
    Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  4. #24
    The first wave of funny twists I saw was when the DoD went small bore.
    As I understand it, they made some M16s with the then standard 14 twist as seen in .222 and other benchrest and varmint rifles shooting 50-55 gr flat base spitzers and 52 gr boattail hollow points. That was inadequate with the cheap M193 55 gr FMJ boattails in cold dense air, so they went to a 12 twist.

    The Marine rifle team got some 10 twist barrels to try to make the AR an Across the Course match rifle with ball ammo.

    Efforts to increase range and penetration brought the 62 gr SS109 bullet in M855 ammo, for which a 9 twist would have been ample, but the very long M856 tracer required the present 7 twist.

    A lot of target shooters are now using 8 twist for 80 gr bullets.

    The other line of twist increase was by LR and PR shooters who were tired of getting kicked by .300 Magnums. So they went to smaller calibers with high BC bullets and faster twists than usual in 6, 6.5, and 7mm.
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  5. #25
    Site Supporter SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Good history lesson @Jim Watson

    I will add that the LR/PR shooters were also tired of the costs associated with burning all that powder and short barrel life that come with shooting magnums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.
    All the new cartridges are a little bit gimmicky. To most shooters, except for recoil, they won't know the difference between at 308 and a 6.5 Creedmoor, but a competitor who is trying to win a match where the difference is 0.1", it matters.

    I have always liked 6mm/243 caliber rifles. Years ago I had a 6mm Remington and shot 75 grain bullets at prairie poodles. I didn't fully grasp the concept of long bullets with a high ballistic coefficient because I was always going for velocity.

    One day someone told me that BC trumps velocity when it comes to long range. I did a little research and I found that to be true but the BC of a bullet will typically increase with velocity.

    Also, shorter bullets are more accurate on paper. Even with the long, high BC bullets being available, the benchrest crowd still shoot 60-70 grain flat based 6mm bullets at 100-300 yards.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  6. #26
    3 YARD SNIPER awp_101's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone, I’m sorting through wants, needs and budget but it’s going to require more typing than I want to do on a phone keyboard. I will say I’m expanding my choices for a base rifle and @SecondsCount should get a kick out of my (positive) thoughts on the .243.
    Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain

    All generalizations are incorrect, including this one.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awp_101 View Post
    Thanks everyone, I’m sorting through wants, needs and budget but it’s going to require more typing than I want to do on a phone keyboard. I will say I’m expanding my choices for a base rifle and @SecondsCount should get a kick out of my (positive) thoughts on the .243.
    This may sound a little "gimmicky" but I would go with 6mm Creedmoor over 243.

    Most of the rifles in 243 on the market are are 9 or 10 twist barrels which won't stabilize the long bullets with a high BC. There is also a lot more 6CM ammo available for shooting at long ranges.

    If you reload, 6CM has the 30 degree shoulder which means you get less case growth and you will probably never need to trim your cases. It's also a little more efficient when it comes to powder so you get a little bit longer barrel life.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  8. #28
    I got introduced to bench shooting a couple of years ago. Still a novice, but had the opportunity to try out some good rifles at distances out to 500 meters. I got a lot of advice on what to buy for myself, but ended up starting with a Rock River LAR-15 14.5 1-9 twist heavy barrel. After figuring out that it liked 55 grain boat tails better than the heavier bullets, I was able to get it to group an average of an inch, with a .60 MOA one time with Hornaday V-Max. That RRA, with a 4X16 scope was good enough for me to get hits on 3x5" steel out to 500 meters, with some high quality coaching. Nothing wrong with .223/5.56 for intermediate range shooting, and the Remington 700 is a good rifle. Still, I'd look for something with a faster rate of twist and the ability to stabilize heavier bullets if you decide to up your game. Tikka and Bergara are two budget friendly rifles. Savage, Ruger, and Mossberg also offer some decent alternatives.

  9. #29
    3 YARD SNIPER awp_101's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone, I'm soaking up as much as I can right now. With Model 70s and Tikkas going for more than I want to pay right now and after doing some thinking I've expanded my search parameters a bit and narrowed down some features I'd prefer.

    I'm sticking to .223 (ideally .223 Wylde) for economy and recoil reasons. If/when I decide to step up in caliber, .243 will probably be my choice because I have a thing for old calibers, I like the quarterbores (plus 7mm) and I'm a contrarian guncrank. This is just for my 100/200 yard bench shooting fun so get off my lawn! But the case for 6 CM is compelling. I almost bit on a RPR in 6 CM with 400 rounds of factory ammo but it was just over what I was willing to spend, I haven't really handled a RPR (although I do have the rimfire version) and it seems like a waste of a good LR cartridge for a 200 yard range. I might have to take another look at the 6 CM.

    Turns out I'm not as interested in a chassis rifle as I thought I was. After handling a couple of Savage rifles in factory MDT stocks, I prefer the feel and handling of something like the KRG Bravo, H-S or B&C. My Bravo stocked 10/22 feels much better to me than my RPRR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Not exactly the varmint rifle you mentioned, but close. That's a 1500 HB .223 with a B&C stock. It's a real nice shooter.
    I like that. That's a good looking setup that also appears to be pretty solid. I had a 7.62x39 barreled action a few years ago but never could find any stocks I liked that were in my budget and the aftermarket support in general seemed a bit thin. Given my intention to use this rifle for fun and training, I think I'm going to add them to my search list.


    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Honestly, I'd just spend some time with that upper. Assuming it's not the built-in carry handle irons version, spend the bolt gun money on some really nice glass. My 20-in. upper was a big factor in viewing my .223 bolt gun as surplus and putting it on consignment.
    It arrived yesterday and I think I'm going to need a separate thread for it. It's the A4 Service Rifle Optic Upper, Post Ban, 1-7. Once I get a fixed stock lower assembled, I need to learn how to shoot it from the bench since I haven't found a way to mount one of my Magpul bipods to the A2 handguard yet. I'll still want a good bolt action because I like variety.
    Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain

    All generalizations are incorrect, including this one.

  10. #30
    Old man yelling at cloud OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    On the WOA upper, I wonder if you could swap out the gas block for one with a chunk of Pic on the bottom and just use a Magpul bipod. And maybe receiver height rail on the upper part so you could mount up folding irons just for giggles.

    One thing to consider is that if you're really going to chase accuracy and work up custom loads for the guns, you'll have separate brass fleets for a bolt gun and for the gas gun anyway. You'll use a full-length die for the gas gun to ensure reliable feeding and mostly just neck size for the bolt gun, so even the press setups will be different. So you there's an argument for making it a different cartridge altogether to prevent mixups.

    What about doing something in a PPC or TCU? All the economy with brass and powder of a .223, but something different and an ecosystem devoted to competition accuracy?
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